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The Perfect Fingertip Mouse -- Let's pool suggestions

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Erecshyrinol

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I know there's quite a few fingertip grippers here and I'm sure that just like me, outside of the office mouse market, you're yet to find something that perfectly fits your grip.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Fingertippers prefer to "pencil", or in other words, pinch their mouse. This usually means a preference for narrow mice with a pronounced \_/ throughout the length of the body. The FK is a big favorite for that reason, but much like the vast majority of gaming mice, it grows in width towards the butt, ending up with that wide hump designed for comfortable clawing. Combine that with another trend in gaming mice: long body. In order to avoid digging the hump into the back of your hand, your fingertipper (provided the average 18~20cm long hand) will be gripping the mouse right at the point where the mouse becomes wider and vertically flatter, defeating the point of the \_/ which only claw and palmgrippers get to enjoy. Another problem associated with this is that you are restricted access to the tip of the mouse buttons, having instead to click further back which means mushier feedback and higher actuation force on some mice.

As an example, I'll use this office mouse I have laying around that eliminates pretty much all of these issues:

http://i.imgur.com/SDk5S1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Lx83Vub.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WiCBrck.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UWn05GK.jpg

I'm sure that if you tried it, you'd prefer the shape to the FK, FK1, Avior, Abyssus, G100s and other fingertip favorites. Let me explain point by point why this is the case:

  • The mouse is very narrow.
  • The \_/ follows the length of the body instead of just the tip of the mouse.
  • The butt recedes instead of growing in width.
  • The mouse is very low (height-wise), preventing any chance of the base of your palm coming in contact with the body.
  • The mouse is very small and therefore short, meaning you have more freedom of vertical movement without the butt of your palm interfering. Handy for techniques like rocket jumping which require fast and relatively long downward flicks.
Ideally, I wish the mouse was even shorter for even more freedom in vertical movement (something Quakers will understand and appreciate), but this is all I have handy as an example.

It seems absurd to me that these type of shapes are so popular among budget and laptop mice, yet completely ignored in the gaming market. This is why I think this issue warrants it's own thread. I think the problem can be broken down as follows:

  • Narrow mice (especially \_/ shaped) are often associated with cramping. I think this is unfair and stems entirely from claw and palm grippers trying to adapt their styles to a shape not designed for this purpose. I've gamed with the example mouse and I've never had anything close to cramping issues. In fact, it is wide mice that make my hand cramp.
  • Gaming peripheral manufacturers lack the courage to release a mouse for what they perceive is a small niche interest group. This never stopped Cooler Master from releasing the Spawn that caters to a very specific audience of strict, non-hybrid claw grippers, so, you know. Is there a polite way of saying "do like CM does and grow some balls?". Judging by my observations from following online mouse communities, they'd be surprised at the popularity of a fingertip shape like this.
  • Small mice are immediately associated with laptops which is utter nonsense. I think this is some weird "bigger is automatically better" mentality that only has place in design considerations if your only aim is marketing to irrational people who don't really know what they want. I think this community very well knows that this is, unfortunately, often very much the case in the peripheral market.
  • Lack of communication from fingertippers. This is perhaps where this thread might help.

I'd like to hear your opinions on the above and your own suggestions for your idea of the perfect fingertip mouse.
 
#2 ·
The G100s is the best fingertip mouse I've personally used. In fact, I have zero complaints about it as far as shape/weight goes. FK1 is great as well, but I tend to hybrid grip it.

Plenty of mice out there work well in fingertip (any fairly small, light, ambi mouse) it's just everything else being incorporated into it that people are looking for. bst's mouse could easily dominate this arena.
 
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Discussion starter · #3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximillion View Post

The G100s is the best fingertip mouse I've personally used. In fact, I have zero complaints about it as far as shape/weight goes. FK1 is great as well, but I tend to hybrid grip it.

Plenty of mice out there work well in fingertip (any fairly small, light, ambi mouse) it's just everything else being incorporated into it that people are looking for. bst's mouse could easily dominate this arena.
Click to expand...
The MX300 used to be my favorite shape so I naturally agree with the g100s which is very similar. But recently, I've realized my perfect mouse would have to be slightly narrower and shorter.

As it stands though, I'd agree that the g100s is as close as it gets to perfect shape-wise in the current market. Perhaps Krait 2013 is better, but it's not locally available anywhere outside of Asia.

All that aside though, the g100s does have issues with low perfect control speed...

... And ugliness -- but that's not what this thread is for.
 
#4 ·
I think the Ninox Aurora shape is better than the G100s for a fingertip grip. The hump is smaller and not as far back on the mouse. The sides on the Aurora are more \_/, the G100s has the same general shape on the sides but it has a rounded curve to it. Plus the Aurora has side buttons! The G302 might be an excellent option but will most likely have the same 2.7-3m/s tracking speed of the g100s and G402 without accelerometer.
 
#5 ·
You said to correct you if you're wrong, so here goes:
  • The entire point of the fingertip grip is your hand having minimal contact with the mouse, which means that as far as what's ergonomically appropriate for the grip, shape is almost irrelevant.
  • To expand on that, the butt growing in width is only a problem to the extent that your hand is too narrow for the mouse in question. Ergo, it's a size issue rather than a shape issue.
  • Having to click further back from the tip, while often true for fingertip, can also be argued to be a size issue. However, a well designed mouse won't feel mushier or require more actuation force when clicked there.
There are no mice specifically designed for fingertip, because there's no need for them.
 
#6 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artifact View Post

You said to correct you if you're wrong, so here goes:
  • The entire point of the fingertip grip is your hand having minimal contact with the mouse, which means that as far as what's ergonomically appropriate for the grip, shape is almost irrelevant.
  • To expand on that, the butt growing in width is only a problem to the extent that your hand is too narrow for the mouse in question. Ergo, it's a size issue rather than a shape issue.
  • Having to click further back from the tip, while often true for fingertip, can also be argued to be a size issue. However, a well designed mouse won't feel mushier or require more actuation force when clicked there.
There are no mice specifically designed for fingertip, because there's no need for them.
Click to expand...
This is extremely true and also why I don't really mind most mice in terms of shape. But weight makes a big difference when you're a fingertip.

Also, the FK1 is the closest to a perfect mouse I've ever used so that's what gets my vote.
 
#7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artifact View Post

You said to correct you if you're wrong, so here goes:
  • The entire point of the fingertip grip is your hand having minimal contact with the mouse, which means that as far as what's ergonomically appropriate for the grip, shape is almost irrelevant.
  • To expand on that, the butt growing in width is only a problem to the extent that your hand is too narrow for the mouse in question. Ergo, it's a size issue rather than a shape issue.
  • Having to click further back from the tip, while often true for fingertip, can also be argued to be a size issue. However, a well designed mouse won't feel mushier or require more actuation force when clicked there.
There are no mice specifically designed for fingertip, because there's no need for them.
Click to expand...
I think there's a bit more to it than that, at least if you are very picky about mouse stuff...

For one, as shape changes, so too will the angle at which each fingertip contacts the mouse. Having the right combination of angles to move the mouse in various directions contributes to control.

Next, the shape of the mouse contributes to its weight distribution, and the weight distribution relative to the contact points affects, along with the position and shape of the mouse feet, how easily the user can manage the mouse's mass. This is part of why it is not optimal to use a long mouse and click further back. Another part of that is that if you are using a mouse that is too big, you will wind up holding it in a way that results in a non-optimal positioning of the sensor relative to your points of control on the mouse.

Also, because size cannot go infinitely low, especially when you're talking about mice with top-level optical sensors (a 3090 with all of the accompanying parts isn't that little), the shape of the mouse can contribute to its ability to contain all of the necessary components without becoming excessively large in any dimension.

So far, the closest thing that I've found to a competent mouse for fingertip grip is Zealot Jr.. I've got an Aurora pre-ordered, though; hopefully, that will prove to be even better.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artifact View Post

You said to correct you if you're wrong, so here goes:
Click to expand...
I disagree almost entirely. In addition to the good points FoxWolf made, here's what I think:
Quote:
The entire point of the fingertip grip is your hand having minimal contact with the mouse, which means that as far as what's ergonomically appropriate for the grip, shape is almost irrelevant.
Click to expand...
If by "ergonomics" you mean comfort, this is not really at all about comfort.

Keeping in mind that mice need to be big enough to house a good sensor, it's about the wieldiness of the mouse. Wider mice are an issue for fast flicking if you don't want to flail your hand around all the time. If your idea of flicking is keeping your wrist stationary on the mousepad as much as possible, flicking with finger movements and only moving your entire arm if necessary, you want a narrow mouse. Also relevant is the length of the mouse, as stated, because for fingertip grippers, long mice interfere with vertical movement. Most notably, it's a nuisance when rocket jumping. This is partly why Quake players use acceleration -- it makes flicking for rocket jumps easier. However, you don't want overzealous acceleration, so you still do need some space for that fast flick and if the back of the mouse is constantly digging into your palm whenever you do a downward flick, you have to move your entire arm to do it, forcing your palm to leave the mousepad. This is pretty much a non-issue for CS, CoD and Battlefield players and given the popularity of these games in comparison to games that require more vertical movement, this is probably why you rarely hear this issue mentioned.
Quote:
To expand on that, the butt growing in width is only a problem to the extent that your hand is too narrow for the mouse in question. Ergo, it's a size issue rather than a shape issue.
Click to expand...
My hand is on the larger size of average and quite wide as well. If by "size issue" you mean my hand, that's no issue. If by "size issue" you mean that the shape is irrelevant as long as the mouse is small enough, that's incorrect. It's still preferable to have a \_/ shape for that pinching slip-free grip and the bonus of easier liftoff when necessary.
Quote:
Having to click further back from the tip, while often true for fingertip, can also be argued to be a size issue. However, a well designed mouse won't feel mushier or require more actuation force when clicked there.
Click to expand...
There's always a sweet spot for effortless actuation, even for perfectly designed mice. It's rarely further back, if ever. I'll agree that the issue is negligible for well designed buttons, but most mice I've tried are definitely harder to click further back.

Here's the thing though -- even if you were 100% correct and shape had no impact on the wieldiness of the mouse, there's still no miniature mice with top tier sensors out there, forcing fingertippers to get used to overall bigger and therefore longer and wider mice.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by metal571 View Post

This is extremely true and also why I don't really mind most mice in terms of shape. But weight makes a big difference when you're a fingertip.

Also, the FK1 is the closest to a perfect mouse I've ever used so that's what gets my vote.
Click to expand...
I think the main reason you're easily adaptable is because you use very low sensitivity. When you flail your hand around a lot and keep your wrist locked tight, the width of the mouse is less of an issue. Your grip doesn't change much at all throughout the session. However, if you prefer to keep your wrist stationary as much as possible and flick with finger and wrist movements, your grip is in constant flux. This is especially true for the ring finger that can get in extremely awkward positions with fatter mice, especially if they're high and humpy as well.

This is especially true if you play games that don't require of you to do lots of vertical and especially downward movement which is particularly problematic if the mouse is long with a fat butt. I understand you main Battlefield and that game simply has no scenarios like the vertical fights on DM6. Most of your flicks are horizontal and diagonal, whereas Quake is filled to the brim with steep downward and upward flicks. Same goes for Warsow and to a slightly lesser degree, Unreal.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
I've owned the Spawn for about a week some three years ago and I just couldn't make peace with it. The mouse is so wide that it's clearly designed for moving around with the entire arm. At worst, it even made me cramp a bit.

Recommended it to a friend though and he loved it. I think he still uses that mouse.

A question to fans of wide mice like the Spawn/Xornet and the G9x:

1) Do narrow mice make you less precise?
2) Are narrow mice uncomfortable to you and make your palm or fingers cramp?
 
#16 ·
I don't know, I never used more than wrist and fingertip movement with those mice. Might be a size issue. I recommended Spawn for a friend as well. From my understanding he has small hands. He palms it and loves it. My only real issue with the spawn and xornet would be the massively off center sensor position. Maybe the cord too.

My hands are a little bigger than average, and the issue I have with narrow mice like the old Abyssus for instance is that my fingers simply do not curve inwards comfortably enough to maintain a solid grip during any fast reactionary movement.

As for the questions

1) Yes, this has been my experience so far. To compensate, I need to lower sensitivity beyond what I'd prefer.
2) Yes, I wouldn't say they consistently outright cramp but there is discomfort with most narrow mice unless I keep the range of fingertip motion very small. G300 is a bit of an exception since I can just kind of rest the little finger on the right side lip in the back. Not ideal but it works.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxWolf1 View Post

I think there's a bit more to it than that, at least if you are very picky about mouse stuff...
Click to expand...
Which is why I said "almost irrelevant"
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxWolf1 View Post

For one, as shape changes, so too will the angle at which each fingertip contacts the mouse. Having the right combination of angles to move the mouse in various directions contributes to control.
Click to expand...
With "uneven" shapes, the angle at which each fingertip contacts the mouse changes as the hand size/mouse size ratio changes, so I feel this doesn't contradict my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxWolf1 View Post

Next, the shape of the mouse contributes to its weight distribution, and the weight distribution relative to the contact points affects, along with the position and shape of the mouse feet, how easily the user can manage the mouse's mass. This is part of why it is not optimal to use a long mouse and click further back. Another part of that is that if you are using a mouse that is too big, you will wind up holding it in a way that results in a non-optimal positioning of the sensor relative to your points of control on the mouse.
Click to expand...
Weight distribution can depend on other things than shape, so I disagree that that's relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxWolf1 View Post

Also, because size cannot go infinitely low, especially when you're talking about mice with top-level optical sensors (a 3090 with all of the accompanying parts isn't that little), the shape of the mouse can contribute to its ability to contain all of the necessary components without becoming excessively large in any dimension.
Click to expand...
Same applies here. Just because one specific shape happens to be appropriate for housing the necessary components, doesn't mean others aren't. All you've mentioned are indirect factors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erecshyrinol View Post

I disagree almost entirely. In addition to the good points FoxWolf made, here's what I think:
If by "ergonomics" you mean comfort, this is not really at all about comfort.
Click to expand...
No, I mean ergonomics. If I meant comfort, I would have said "comfort". When you talk about "the perfect fingertip mouse", you refer to ergonomics. Otherwise it's not worth a discussion, since comfort itself is subjective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erecshyrinol View Post

Keeping in mind that mice need to be big enough to house a good sensor, it's about the wieldiness of the mouse. Wider mice are an issue for fast flicking if you don't want to flail your hand around all the time. If your idea of flicking is keeping your wrist stationary on the mousepad as much as possible, flicking with finger movements and only moving your entire arm if necessary, you want a narrow mouse. Also relevant is the length of the mouse, as stated, because for fingertip grippers, long mice interfere with vertical movement. Most notably, it's a nuisance when rocket jumping. This is partly why Quake players use acceleration -- it makes flicking for rocket jumps easier. However, you don't want overzealous acceleration, so you still do need some space for that fast flick and if the back of the mouse is constantly digging into your palm whenever you do a downward flick, you have to move your entire arm to do it, forcing your palm to leave the mousepad. This is pretty much a non-issue for CS, CoD and Battlefield players and given the popularity of these games in comparison to games that require more vertical movement, this is probably why you rarely hear this issue mentioned.
Click to expand...
I've never disputed narrowness being preferred for fingertip in respect to other grips. On the contrary-narrowness/width is a direct property of size, and supports my point about size being more relevant than shape. In other words, narrowness being preferred doesn't strictly mean a \_/ shape is more appropriate: a |_| mouse that's as narrow as the butt of the hypothetical \_/ mouse is effectively the same for a fingertipper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erecshyrinol View Post

My hand is on the larger size of average and quite wide as well. If by "size issue" you mean my hand, that's no issue. If by "size issue" you mean that the shape is irrelevant as long as the mouse is small enough, that's incorrect. It's still preferable to have a \_/ shape for that pinching slip-free grip and the bonus of easier liftoff when necessary.
Click to expand...
You're merely stating it's incorrect here, not explaining how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erecshyrinol View Post

There's always a sweet spot for effortless actuation, even for perfectly designed mice. It's rarely further back, if ever. I'll agree that the issue is negligible for well designed buttons, but most mice I've tried are definitely harder to click further back.
Click to expand...
As you said, it's negligible for well designed buttons. That's all I need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erecshyrinol View Post

Here's the thing though -- even if you were 100% correct and shape had no impact on the wieldiness of the mouse, there's still no miniature mice with top tier sensors out there, forcing fingertippers to get used to overall bigger and therefore longer and wider mice.
Click to expand...
To me, the proper conclusion for that is that there are no appropriate mice for fingertippers with small hands. I disagree with all the statements implying that it's impossible to make such mice using "gaming-grade" components-manufacturers are just not trying to, for reasons it's safe to assume are financial more than anything else.
 
#18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erecshyrinol View Post

I've owned the Spawn for about a week some three years ago and I just couldn't make peace with it. The mouse is so wide that it's clearly designed for moving around with the entire arm. At worst, it even made me cramp a bit.

Recommended it to a friend though and he loved it. I think he still uses that mouse.

A question to fans of wide mice like the Spawn/Xornet and the G9x:

1) Do narrow mice make you less precise?
2) Are narrow mice uncomfortable to you and make your palm or fingers cramp?
Click to expand...
spawn really isn't that wide.. it just looks wide because of how short it is. especially if you grip with your ring finger and count where the ring finger rests as where the mouse ends since that is where your ring finger would be on a mouse without a rest as well. like i said the g502 is probably my favorite fingertip mouse shape wise and it's narrow.. yet feels very similar to me as the spawn/xornet just a little longer . where my ring finger grips the right side feels the same width as where my ring finger would rest on the spawn/xornet
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artifact View Post

No, I mean ergonomics. If I meant comfort, I would have said "comfort". When you talk about "the perfect fingertip mouse", you refer to ergonomics. Otherwise it's not worth a discussion, since comfort itself is subjective.
Click to expand...
Ergonomics will always be subjective because the shape and size of hands will wary. Even playstyle is still relevant to the discussion because it differs even among fingertippers. Just refer to my back-and-forth with Metal571 earlier in this thread.
Quote:
I've never disputed narrowness being preferred for fingertip in respect to other grips. On the contrary-narrowness/width is a direct property of size, and supports my point about size being more relevant than shape. In other words, narrowness being preferred doesn't strictly mean a \_/ shape is more appropriate: a |_| mouse that's as narrow as the butt of the hypothetical \_/ mouse is effectively the same for a fingertipper.
Click to expand...
A \_/ shape is not just about preference for a narrow mouse. A \_/ shape will aid "pinchy" grip styles because it prevents your fingers from sliding upwards. This is especially true if you lift your mouse a lot.
Quote:
You're merely stating it's incorrect here, not explaining how.
Click to expand...
I clearly explained it. If it wasn't clear enough, it's clear in the explanation above.
Quote:
To me, the proper conclusion for that is that there are no appropriate mice for fingertippers with small hands. I disagree with all the statements implying that it's impossible to make such mice using "gaming-grade" components-manufacturers are just not trying to, for reasons it's safe to assume are financial more than anything else.
Click to expand...
Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you for sure, but I've heard it time and time again that better sensors will be bigger. This is not my field of expertise however.

Bottomline -- about shape. Here we go, all over again:

http://imgur.com/uCtUfIp

Here you see two shapes.

As stated, one of them is near perfect for me. It's the same a4 tech from the OP.

The other is Storm Recon which I find pretty terrible.

Note that they are the same length and overall width. The difference between the two are the following:

  • The a4 mouse recedes in the butt area, whereas the Recon's butt becomes progressively wider and rounder.
  • The a4 is a \_/, the Recon is I_I. As I've explained above, this is more than just the inherent narrowness of \_/ mice.
  • The Recon is significantly higher.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by riznich48 View Post

spawn really isn't that wide.. it just looks wide because of how short it is. especially if you grip with your ring finger and count where the ring finger rests as where the mouse ends since that is where your ring finger would be on a mouse without a rest as well. like i said the g502 is probably my favorite fingertip mouse shape wise and it's narrow.. yet feels very similar to me as the spawn/xornet just a little longer . where my ring finger grips the right side feels the same width as where my ring finger would rest on the spawn/xornet
Click to expand...
Ahh, but that's the thing. I found gripping the Spawn with the ring finger exclusively near impossible. It still forced my pinky to the wide side of the mouse and it felt awkward as all hell when moving the mouse horizontally. It just feels like there's not enough space to do it without moving your entire arm.

The Spawn is wide, regardless of it's length. It's one of the widest mice available.
 
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