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No problems here on my Samsung 950 Pro 256 GB.

Everything runs smooth as silk and fast as it can be. Benchmarks show the correct values, so i guess its not ryzen but a motherboard issue because if it is an ryzen issue we ALL should see the same problems which we don't.
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurricane28 View Post

No problems here on my Samsung 950 Pro 256 GB.

Everything runs smooth as silk and fast as it can be. Benchmarks show the correct values, so I guess it's not ryzen but a motherboard issue because if it is an ryzen issue we ALL should see the same problems which we don't.
You missed the part in this thread that discusses how Samsung drives run fine! It is a Driver issue or something like that, and actually, it is a Ryzen issue, look a few posts back about how Ryzen handles I/O. The Samsung drives tend to use the Samsung driver which bypasses the default Windows driver, but it's not just this motherboard nor is it just me as you can see from the many posts here. I've tested 6 different mother boards, and 4 different CPUs, and many drives, all displaying the same results. It is definitely a Ryzen thing and you can read more about it here (https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/AMD-Ryzen-7-1800X-Review-Now-and-Zen/Ryzen-Chipsets-and-Storage-Performance), and more importantly, let me rephrase your right it's actually an AMD thing not just subject to Ryzen.

Also, an important note is even with the same drives tested my Intel test bench runs fine with drives running at rated speeds. I don't have the actual answer but the guy who wrote that article over at PC Per is very smart with drives and knows what he's talking about. He actually has taught me what I know about drives over the years. So there is an issue, but I can't put an exact finger on it specifically, but it is related to I/O!

The Samsung drives thou all run fine, even in my testing, so something strange is occurring with that and does require investigation.
 
Discussion starter · #43 ·
Can we see some examples of NON-Samsung SSDs, either NVMe or regular SSD tests on any B350 or X370 system? I want to see just one result that gives you the rated speeds using the default windows AHCI driver. If it's Samsung we've already established that we do see rated speeds from the 9 series NVMe SSDs. Which begs the question, is it due to the Samsung Driver? My understanding from researching this is AMD has always fallen behind on I/O performance when compared to Intel. What I can't figure out for the life of me is why no one has raised this as an issue since the Ryzen launch. the one question I ask myself that I can't seem to figure out is, even if the drive benchmarks show slightly slower speeds we're talking not a huge variable EX: A drive rated for 2400/1000, might show 2200/960, is this normal to see lower numbers compared to Intel?

I can live with the slower numbers, and it seems I'm not the only person experiencing these slightly lower than rated speeds of drives. I wanted to make that clear rated vs slightly lower bc 200/960 is still fast, but it's not within what I see on my Intel system. So is this acceptable speeds for SSDs on Ryzen? I've been trying to search for an answer, and working with AMD and drive manufacturers. I have a sneaking suspicion is it's related to how Ryzen handles I/O and the infinity fabric.
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurricane28 View Post

No problems here on my Samsung 950 Pro 256 GB.

Everything runs smooth as silk and fast as it can be. Benchmarks show the correct values, so i guess its not ryzen but a motherboard issue because if it is an ryzen issue we ALL should see the same problems which we don't.
can you show some benchmarks, I know I've tested it myself and saw good numbers, but it would be helpful for a point of reference. What is puzzling is why would the Samsung driver even matter compared to the default AHCI one. From talking with several storage experts it shouldn't matter at all. I have looked at every article that covers any sort of storage test for Ryzen, and they all seem to say its great, but what exactly does that mean. Most of them used a Samsung drive and the ones that didn't did show slower results. if it's acceptable speeds I'm seeing in this thread then fine whatever I can live with that, but if it's something that can be fixed I would love to help figure out what exactly is the reasoning. Looking at the Windows power plan fiasco leads me to believe there is still a ton of windows optimizations that still need to happen.

Further, from this issue, I also found out that the current version of Windows 10 and above )Including Experimental versions), have a wake from sleep issue with NVMe. If you disable link state power management then this should solve your problem. I researched that for weeks and tried several tests. If you're waking from sleep and seeing a black screen with your cursor, and it takes like 2 min to get to login screen, then link state disabled fixes this for now.
 
I think it's 100% a driver issue, not an issue that is inherently wrong with the Ryzen design.

Reason being, is I can get the 100% rated speeds by either unchecking "write buffer-cache" or by installing a Samsung driver (which for all I know is they mess with the write buffer-cache setting in the driver itself).

If it were a Ryzen thing, we couldn't "driver hack" our way around the issue and get the same speeds as seen on Intel rigs.

Something doesn't play 100% with the W10 default driver and/or AMD chipset drivers, and several non-samsung drives. I don't think there is much to read into it beyond that. Driver updates should take care of things.
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post

I think it's 100% a driver issue, not an issue that is inherently wrong with the Ryzen design.

Reason being, is I can get the 100% rated speeds by either unchecking "write buffer-cache" or by installing a Samsung driver (which for all I know is they mess with the write buffer-cache setting in the driver itself).

If it were a Ryzen thing, we couldn't "driver hack" our way around the issue and get the same speeds as seen on Intel rigs.

Something doesn't play 100% with the W10 default driver and/or AMD chipset drivers, and several non-samsung drives. I don't think there is much to read into it beyond that. Driver updates should take care of things.
Hey, can you provide some screen shots for reference? Also what drive are you running? if you are using the Samsung driver and getting rated speeds that are really good for you because I didn't have any luck on multiple drives I've tried. The only time I've gotten rated speeds was with a 950 or 960 PRO. I did try the Samsung driver thing for the BPX drive, but it only improved a little. That is good but, unless I'm mistaken I was expecting rate speeds on Ryzen, and maybe that is an unfair expectation is my point. From what I can tell is it's much better I/O than it used to be, but still not as good as what you will see on an Intel system. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I clearly am not the only person seeing these type of results.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedson3614 View Post

Hey, can you provide some screen shots for reference? Also what drive are you running? if you are using the Samsung driver and getting rated speeds that are really good for you because I didn't have any luck on multiple drives I've tried. The only time I've gotten rated speeds was with a 950 or 960 PRO. I did try the Samsung driver thing for the BPX drive, but it only improved a little. That is good but, unless I'm mistaken I was expecting rate speeds on Ryzen, and maybe that is an unfair expectation is my point. From what I can tell is it's much better I/O than it used to be, but still not as good as what you will see on an Intel system. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I clearly am not the only person seeing these type of results.
I'm at work right now but I'll throw some together tonight or tomorrow morning and post here.

Also, there is a new AMD chipset driver out for Ryzen/Threadripper. Curious if there have been any improvements made regarding NVMe drives there.

May try to do my testing before and after updating to the newest chipset drivers.
 
Discussion starter · #48 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post

I'm at work right now but I'll throw some together tonight or tomorrow morning and post here.

Also, there is a new AMD chipset driver out for Ryzen/Threadripper. Curious if there have been any improvements made regarding NVMe drives there.

May try to do my testing before and after updating to the newest chipset drivers.
Hey, that would be great, you mean newer than 17.10? I will take a look as well!
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by allikat View Post

Stock settings and default drivers with my PM961 oem drive, not in a benchmarking setting, I was doing other stuff like watching netflix, but no real drive using stuff.

Two problems that validate this entire thread, first that drive is supposed to be rated for up to 2800 speeds, found those listed here (https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-MZVLW256HEHP-PM961-256GB-Internal/dp/B06VYJMLS8), and second your write speed is low because you need to go into device manager and make sure both caching boxes are checked for your drive. This will fix the low speed displayed for write.

Somone please post 950 or 960 benchmarks, because this right here is, in fact, a Samsung drive, that I'm guessing is NOT using a Samsung driver and yet the proof is in the screen shot above it is definitely showing "SLOWER" than rated speeds. His drive is rated for 2800 yet get's only 2500, can some make any sense of this and WHY the hell this may be occurring. I have seen ZEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO issues on Intel test systems but Storage benchmarks for my current Ryzen test systems are all over the place. For this last post alone it is evident that it's not even isolated to Samsung but just the 950 and 950 series of drives that offer a Samsung driver!

And you are in fact using the default Windows driver, I can tell because AS SSD shows storNVMe which is the default NVMe driver for windows.
 
I really wish there is a fix in the works...
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurricane28 View Post

Here are my benchmark scores:



No problems here.

I will come back later, have to eat my dinner now.
The numbers are not as fast as what the drive is advertised as being my entire point. I've tried the 960 PRO and on my Intel test system get the advertised speeds, but on my Crosshair hero and including you do NOT get close to it. you're much lower around 2700/2000 vs 3500/2100. What are you saying that on Ryzen you should EXPECT SLOWER speeds? The way it's advertised is full m.2 support, and on hero up to 32GB/s. We should have more than enough bandwidth to hit advertised speeds.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedson3614 View Post

The numbers are not as fast as what the drive is advertised as being my entire point. I've tried the 960 PRO and on my Intel test system get the advertised speeds, but on my Crosshair hero and including you do NOT get close to it. you're much lower around 2700/2000 vs 3500/2100. What are you saying that on Ryzen you should EXPECT SLOWER speeds? The way it's advertised is full m.2 support, and on hero up to 32GB/s. We should have more than enough bandwidth to hit advertised speeds.
In order to help you i need more information about your system.

What kind of CPU, RAM and at what speed.

BIOS screen shots etc.

I know for sure its not chipset related as the M.2 Nvme drive is directly connected to the CPU.

On the AMD thread someone claimed to NOT USE THE SAMSUNG NVME DRIVER because it slows down the read and write speeds.. This is ridiculous as i am running the latest drivers and Samsung Magician and i have no isses whatsoever... I didn't even bother installing fresh Windows for crying out loud, i just insert my Samsung 950 Pro in my Crosshair and off it went..

I am sure its user error or something screwed up in Windows itself. Which is why i need more information in order to help you. Run Anvil and report back, than we can see what is going on.
 
The issue OP describing here is not specific to Ryzen chipset or any chipset at all. It is a complete lie to pretend otherwise as this issue has been documented by as early as 2015.

The issue stems from Microsoft NVMe driver issuing a FUA (Force Unit Access) I/O command which bypasses the DRAM cache built in on the SSD resulting in poor performance. FUA I/O command is mandatory on Microsoft NVMe driver when the SSD has no power loss protection which would cause data loss in an event of power outage.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/jj134356.aspx
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd979523(v=vs.85).aspx
 
When i was using my Samsung 950 Pro on my 990FX chipset i didn't see any performance increase using both MS and Samsung Nvme driver to be honest. I did see a big gain when enabling write caching and some benchmarks don't even run when disabled including Samsung benchmark. Disabling write cache buffer flushing saved me a couple of times when i had sudden power loss. I had this feature enabled on my previous installation and i got instant corruption.
 


Alright, sorry for the long delay. I wanted this test to be as clean as possible, so I did the following.

1) used the MS download tool to download the latest W10 setup, creators edition
2) Reformatted whole system and installed W10 creators update. Let windows update fully update.
3) Installed newest AMD AM4 chipset drivers
4) Installed newest AMD GPU drivers for my R390
5) Ran AS SSD on fully default W10 drivers, no checking or unchecking of any write-cache boxes (literally no tweaking at all).

Results as above. Interpret as you will.

The newest chipset drivers + W10 creators update may have things worked out.

SPECS
Crosshair hero VI
Ryzen 1700
2x8gb Corsair LPX ddr4 3200mhz
MydigitalSSD BPX 256gb drive.
 
I have same behaviour with PNY CS2030 240gb and Asus C6H+1700X, topping at 2400/500 mb/s with write-cache option unselected. 2400/1200+ when selected.
Tried OCZ RD400/XG3, samsung 2.0/2.2, Intel drivers, none of them make any difference (it shows ocznvme.sys, secvnme.sys etc on AS SSD but no difference in numbers).
Windows 8.1 Pro x64
 
Discussion starter · #60 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraveNoX View Post

I have same behaviour with PNY CS2030 240gb and Asus C6H+1700X, topping at 2400/500 mb/s with write-cache option unselected. 2400/1200+ when selected.
Tried OCZ RD400/XG3, samsung 2.0/2.2, Intel drivers, none of them make any difference (it shows ocznvme.sys, secvnme.sys etc on AS SSD but no difference in numbers).
Windows 8.1 Pro x64
I'm having issues with write now even with cache enabled. I think there are a number of problems here. I'm not an engineer so I don't know what needs to be fixed. I'm getting poor writes with the Plextor M8Se now. I tried Windows Creators update and new AM4 .30 drivers, but neither has helped! I know on my crosshair hero there is an NVMe section in bios but it says I have no NVMe Drive installed when I do.

Windows is using the default NVMe driver, so I don't know what else to try.
 
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