Thermalright Frost Vortex 140 SE info

bombastinator · Aug 1, 2024

I figured. Not quoting Rusch Limbaugh is sometimes hard. He was a world class policy debater before changes made him useless. Like that one ice skater who retired when the figures of figure skating were removed. These days policy is all about how fast you can talk. Happened before he could graduate on a scholarship because he could no longer even make the team. He was desperate. You're making a wrong assumption about how decibels work. They're not linear.

doyll · Aug 2, 2024

bombastinator said:
I figured. Not quoting Rusch Limbaugh is sometimes hard. He was a world class policy debater before changes made him useless. Like that one ice skater who retired when the figures of figure skating were removed. These days policy is all about how fast you can talk. Happened before he could graduate on a scholarship because he could no longer even make the team. He was desperate. You're making a wrong assumption about how decibels work. They're not linear.

Please do a little research about how total volume of multiple sounds. Get a sound meter and you will immediately find out 2 fans each producing 40db have a total volume level of 43db. Add a 3rd 40db fan and total volume level is 45db.

Adding up sound levels of multiple audio sources

A simple rule for adding up the sound levels is to assign a value between 0 - 3dB to the sound level caused by the loudest sound source.

www.sonitron.be

Some sources about how sound levels increase:

Adding acoustic levels summing sound levels 10 combining addition summation sum decibel levels or SPL of up to ten incoherent sound sources audio logarithmic decibel scale identical summing 1/3 octave spl full octave sum sound pressure level noise sound pressure acoustic pressure volts - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Sound level adding addition summing summation sum decibel dB of 10 acoustic sources sum combining decibels or SPL of incoherent sound identical pressure levels audio logarithmic decibel scale sum summing 1/3 octave spl full octave noise sound pressure acoustic pressure volts - Eberhard Sengpiel...

sengpielaudio.com

Signals - Adding Decibels

The logarithmic decibel scale is convenient when adding signal values like sound power, pressure and others from two or more sources.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

bombastinator · Aug 2, 2024

A sound meter in..decibels? The problem isn’t my understanding or the meter, or even the scale, but decibels aren’t linear.

re: the underlined bit
Is that even a sentence? Parts of it seem missing.

Re: the logarithmic nature of decibels
I’m not saying it’s bad, it just doesn’t work the way you were treating it

re: The command that I spend time and money on this
No.
As to whether I know how it works, I think I do. There was a time when quiet computing was a fad. I’ve had more than 3 machines that had coolers that could have double fans and I tested them exhaustively. Long ago. They all worked the same way. They also all had the same size fans on them though. This could be the special sauce. Having the big fan close to the edge of the hook would put the small fan well inside it.

I’m not saying anything new here. This was common knowledge around 2015 when the fad was in full swing.

doyll · Aug 2, 2024

bombastinator said:
A sound meter in..decibels? The problem isn’t my understanding or the meter, or even the scale, but decibels aren’t linear.

re: the underlined bit
Is that even a sentence? Parts of it seem missing.

Re: the logarithmic nature of decibels
I’m not saying it’s bad, it just doesn’t work the way you were treating it

re: The command that I spend time and money on this
No.
As to whether I know how it works, I think I do. There was a time when quiet computing was a fad. I’ve had more than 3 machines that had coolers that could have double fans and I tested them exhaustively. Long ago. They all worked the same way. They also all had the same size fans on them though. This could be the special sauce. Having the big fan close to the edge of the hook would put the small fan well inside it.

I’m not saying anything new here. This was common knowledge around 2015 when the fad was in full swing.

"underlined bit" was added by web. All I posted was links, underlined text was added by web.

If your fans are say 50dB each, 2x fans will be 53.01db , not 100db.
If you add a 3rd 50db fan to first 2, they will be 54.77db not 150db.

You don't even need to use the links. The chart I posted gives dB increase each additional fan up to 20 fans.

As for quiet operation, I was doing it previous century .. before most people even had home computers.

If you're saying 2 fans are twice as loud as one, you are in some sort of altered universe / altered sound continuum.

bombastinator · Aug 2, 2024

doyll said:
"underlined bit" was added by web. All I posted was links, underlined text was added by web.

If your fans are say 50dB each, 2x fans will be 53.01db , not 100db.
If you add a 3rd 50db fan to first 2, they will be 54.77db not 150db.

You don't even need to use the links. The chart I posted gives dB increase each additional fan up to 20 fans.

As for quiet operation, I was doing it previous century .. before most people even had home computers.

If you're saying 2 fans are twice as loud as one, you are in some sort of altered universe / altered sound continuum.

No. Remember, L O G A R Y T H M I C. I’m not saying two fans is double the number of decibels. You’re just proving I didn’t say something I didn’t say. You may have been doing it longer. My first PC compatible was a Sanyo mbc 555, but I didn’t really know how it worked. I was proctoring computer labs in the late 80’s to early 90’s, but I wasn’t into computer sound stuff. They were toaster Macs. I didn’t get into sound stuff till I’d been building PCs for a while, which was later. Fans are propellers though and propeller math got worked out during world war 2 when it mattered more. This was a static and understood thing before I was born. (It’s also why 1950’s era desk fans are awesome btw. All the propeller guys had to go somewhere when jets got invented)

doyll · Aug 2, 2024

bombastinator said:
No. Remember, L O G A R Y T H M I C. I’m not saying two fans is double the number of decibels. You’re just proving I didn’t say something I didn’t say. You may have been doing it longer. My first PC compatible was a Sanyo mbc 555, but I didn’t really know how it worked. I was proctoring computer labs in the late 80’s to early 90’s, but I wasn’t into computer sound stuff. They were toaster Macs. I didn’t get into sound stuff till I’d been building PCs for a while, which was later. Fans are propellers though and propeller math got worked out during world war 2 when it mattered more. This was a static and understood thing before I was born. (It’s also why 1950’s era desk fans are awesome btw. All the propeller guys had to go somewhere when jets got invented.

In your post #13 quoted below:

bombastinator said:

"It does, but if it’s just a few degrees is it worth it in all situations? What you said jibes with my 20% number. May be a question of if you care about noise or not. 20% improvement for 100% more noise. Also since there are two different sized fans slaved together they’re going to run at the same rpm which means the 140 will be a lot louder. Might all come out in the wash though. 800rpm is in the hook for 120s but it’s NOT for 140s. Remember it’s not airflow it’s decibels and watts. All airflow is for is to improve the first two."

Above quote is quote of your post in my post #16. Maybe you forgot about editing out "20% improvement for 100% more noise".

In post #19 you said:

"Re: 100% more noise

there are two fans. Twice as many."

Then you say:

"re: different sized fans thing being false

Lolwut? If one fan is 140x38 and one fan is 120x25 they are DIFFERENT SIZES. One has to be the slave and the other the master, and they will go at the same rpm because that’s how pwm works."

Sorry, but that's not how it works. Different impeller designs and pitches develop different airflow and pressure at same and different rpms, and PWM controllers in fans are specific to each fan. Two fans rated 600-1600rpm can have very different curves running on same system PWM signal. Below is PWM to RPM of original TY-147 and newer TY-147 fans. Almost idential fans running different rpm curves on same PWM signal.

Sounds like we got into computers about the same time. Started with Commodores' with phone hand cradle modem, then Amigas and on into IBM. Was a mistake, should have stayed with Mac/Apple. Always wanted a PowerMac, or at least one of it's cases to build in. But I'm rambling again.

Indeed, those were the fan years (before user AC's were readily available). Some really nice old desk fans, foot stool fans, stand fans, even ceiling fans.

I think fans have improved considerably in last 70 years. New motor tech, better plastics, etc. have lead to improved impeller designs like NH-A12x25 PWM, T30-120, Silent Wings 4, etc. That said, there are still some very good designs from 40s-50s still doing good job. TY-140 PWM, TY-147 & TY-147A PWM, etc, NH-F14 series Nidec Servo Gentle Typhoon D1225C series to name a few.

Still what "in the hook" of a graph line in. Are you referring to the upside down curve near red line in graph below? If not, could you please post a graph showing what "in the hook" is?

bombastinator · Aug 2, 2024

.. double the noise is not double the decibels. Remember logarithmic, not flat. That toms hardware graph is interesting, though the other is unreadable because the resolution is too low. It’s for an aqueous 6 and there fans graphed are a ty147 and ty147a (implying one is tuned to the other). So different stuff entirely. It’s also not an rpm vs noise graph it’s an rpm vs %pwm graph. So of course there’s no hook. You might as well have chosen a graph if the gdp of Slovakia or something. It is interesting though, though not for the reason you claim. It implies that pwm doesn’t actually change rpm till ~40% (one is slower to react). This would be specific to that aqueous 6, whatever that is. So in the fans of the cooler we are actually talking about the pwm sensitivity could be altered, in which case it could be tuned to the cooler and the other fan. My assumption was that it would be linear, but you point out that it doesn’t have to be, if possibly unintentionally. Find a graph of noise vs rpm, you’ll see it.
It’s possible that I’m just used to the older style of fan control which deals with percentages of power and is linear.

doyll · Aug 3, 2024

That is what I've been saying

bombastinator said:
.. double the noise is not double the decibels. Remember logarithmic, not flat. That toms hardware graph is interesting, though the other is unreadable because the resolution is too low. It’s for an aqueous 6 and there fans graphed are a ty147 and ty147a (implying one is tuned to the other). So different stuff entirely. It’s also not an rpm vs noise graph it’s an rpm vs %pwm graph. So of course there’s no hook. You might as well have chosen a graph if the gdp of Slovakia or something. It is interesting though, though not for the reason you claim. It implies that pwm doesn’t actually change rpm till ~40% (one is slower to react). This would be specific to that aqueous 6, whatever that is. So in the fans of the cooler we are actually talking about the pwm sensitivity could be altered, in which case it could be tuned to the cooler and the other fan. My assumption was that it would be linear, but you point out that it doesn’t have to be, if possibly unintentionally. Find a graph of noise vs rpm, you’ll see it.
It’s possible that I’m just used to the older style of fan control which deals with percentages of power and is linear.

In post #13
Melcar said:

"I always find 2 fan setup to be on average quieter and cooler, as the heatsink can cool better (even if it's slightly) and both fans can run at slower speed. "

You replied
In post 14 2

fans is "20% improvement for 100% more noise. "

In post #19 you said:

"Re: 100% more noise

there are two fans. Twice as many."

My understand of of that is 2 fans is 100% more noise.
So
50db increased 100% is 100db.
Because 50db + 50db = 100db.

You said above:

"It’s for an aqueous 6 and there fans graphed are a ty147 and ty147a (implying one is tuned to the other). So different stuff entirely. It’s also not an rpm vs noise graph it’s an rpm vs %pwm graph. So of course there’s no hook."

First thing is it's not an "aqueous 6", it's an "aquaero 6", probably best fan controller there is.
Tom's graph is a simple rpm to PWM signal line graph for TY-147 and TY-147A fans.

aquaero 6 sends 12v power and PWM signal to fans.

aquaero 6 changes percent of PWM signal to fan

then fan's internal PWM control circuit changes that %PWM signal into 12v pulses

the rpm the fan motor runs is not same thing as %PWM signal

this is why TY-147 %PWM : rpm graph line is different from TY-147A %PWM : rpm graph line

PWM signal from motherboard or fan controller is sent to fan where fan's internal PWM circuitry pulses 12v power to fan motor. Tom is using aquero 6 fan controller. AquaComputer makes several controllers, aquaero 6 is their best. Link below shows several simplier / cheaper ones:

aquaero

shop.aquacomputer.de

My "claim" (according to you) is that PWM control is not rpm based control. Most fan controllers are not rpm controlled. They are percentage of PWM control. They send a percentage of 100% PWM signal to fan where fan's internal PWM circuit sends 20% 12v pulses to motor.

This is also true for most variable voltage controllers. They work on percentages of 12v power to fan motor, not percentage of fan rpm. Fan then sends rpm signal back for use to see fan's rpm.

Easy way to check how your mobo controls fan speed is grab 2 fans with different rpm ranges. Plug in 1, set control at about half speed and see what it's rpm is. Then plug in 2nd fan at same control setting ande see what it's rpm is. I'm bet you a pint they are not the same rpm reading.

I'm not arguing about noise / dba vs rpm being linear.

And there was nothing "possibly unintentional" about it. 🤣

bombastinator · Aug 3, 2024

No. You haven’t. That might be what you mean to say, but it comes out “I don’t understand what a logarithmic scale is and I continue to not do so and not only treat it as a linear scale but assume everyone else does as well”. I’m not especially fond of them but it’s not the only one, so I do so. I’ve HAD multiple coolers with 2 fans. This is what happens. It’s also what I read about when such stuff was at the forefront of computer building. Sure the db isn’t raised more than a few points but that IS double the noise. It’s a logarithmic scale. If it was double the dB I would have said double the dB. I didn’t.
Looked at that link. It’s a watercooling site. I assume they’re talking about water to air heat exchange radiators not air coolers and not that specific air cooler or those specific fans at all.

bombastinator · Aug 3, 2024

bombastinator said:
-redacted for length. Full post is visible above-

No. You haven’t. That might be what you mean to say, but it comes out “I don’t understand what a logarithmic scale is and I continue to not do so and not only treat it as a linear scale but assume everyone else does as well”. I’m not especially fond of them but it’s not the only one, so I do so. I’ve HAD multiple coolers with 2 fans. This is what happens. Sometimes they ARE quieter than 1 fan but sometimes they’re also NOT. Specifically when you put too much power through them. It’s also what I read about when such stuff was at the forefront of computer building. Sure the db isn’t raised more than a few points but that IS double the noise. It’s a logarithmic scale. If it was double the dB I would have said double the dB. I didn’t.
Looked at that link. It’s a watercooling site. I assume they’re talking about water to air heat exchange radiators not air coolers and not that specific air cooler or those specific fans at all. That’s just for those fans though. If they ARE the fans in question, (because they’re using the controller on an air cooler) then apparently they don’t even respond to power changes below 40% (which is a bit odd, but happens) but it’s still not a noise vs rpm curve. Those things were so common they were actually printed on the boxes of computer fans some years ago. Not any more it seems.
Now if those fans ARE from that cooler they both start at 600 rpm which for the 140 appears to be almost outside of the hook but not quite. 2300 and 3000 ar both well outside it though so at 100% power it WILL make more noise than if there was just one fan. For only a few degrees of cooling. Not worth it imho, though towards the bottom it would be, and towards the very bottom it would make a huge difference. Though the very bottom seems to be 40% in this case.

doyll · Aug 3, 2024

It might all be logarithmic, but at the end of the day running 2 fans on a cooler (singe or twin tower) only increases the noise by a few dB, and our ears need 2-3dB to even know noise level has increased or decreased. It takes an increase of around 10 dB before the sound subjectively appears to be twice as loud.

kazuviking · Aug 31, 2024

Grabbed one for 38€. Wanna see how this will perform on my "ancient" 8700k. Originally wanted the frost spirit 140 but that went offline and this got put up instead. Really interested in the results when it arrives.

doyll · Aug 31, 2024

kazuviking said:
Grabbed one for 38€. Wanna see how this will perform on my "ancient" 8700k. Originally wanted the frost spirit 140 but that went offline and this got put up instead. Really interested in the results when it arrives.

Very interested in hearing what you think of it once you get up and running. What are your 8700 setup now? 8700 might be a little old, but it's fast enough for what majority of us need done.

kazuviking · Aug 31, 2024

doyll said:
What are your 8700 setup now?

The og CM hyper 212 led tubo without delid. With 30% load the temps are in the 85C territory and under aida stabiltiy test it jumps to 93C instantly and slowly reaches 100C as the cooler saturates. Its not delidded but i will delid it.

doyll · Aug 31, 2024

kazuviking said:
The og CM hyper 212 led tubo without delid. With 30% load the temps are in the 85C territory and under aida stabiltiy test it jumps to 93C instantly and slowly reaches 100C as the cooler saturates. Its not delidded but i will delid it.

When your new cooler arrives, remove old one clean top of CPU, "practice" mount of new cooler with no TIM to see how it fits and how to get it mounted and tightened. Then remove cooler apply a dob of TIM in middle of your 8700 about the size of a grain of rice and mount you new cooler. Start system and I'm pretty sure you will be surprised how much better it cools than your 212 does now.

I suggest you clean all your case fans, grills and filters too. An old toothbrush brushed lightly on fan blades will probably we all you need to clean them. Use your hoover / vacumn cleaner but don't let any metal touch anything on motherboard. On rare occasions static electricity can damage things.

And please let us know what you think about new cooler!

kazuviking · Sep 1, 2024

doyll said:
When your new cooler arrives, remove old one clean top of CPU, "practice" mount of new cooler with no TIM to see how it fits and how to get it mounted and tightened. Then remove cooler apply a dob of TIM in middle of your 8700 about the size of a grain of rice and mount you new cooler.

I know, i built the pc in the first place but thanks anyways. I dont use the grain method but spread it with the spatula, it just stuck to me after working on laptops for a while.

doyll said:
I suggest you clean all your case fans, grills and filters too.

The case is an ancient coolermaster centurion 6 which seen a few upgrades inside and it doesn't have any dust filter at all. I aim the compressor at the case and let it rip but clean up the leftover stuck dust on the fans with Q tips. Stuck with me after cleaning laptops.
The cooler should arrive in 2 days IF the store is to believed, i ordered a darkflash dlc29 mesh case as well but that is delayed for two weeks. And as for the thermal pastes i will be comparing MX-6 and PK-3 Nano Aluminium. I know the Prolimatech PK-3 works because its the only one that did not pump out in the laptop and provided good temps. And as for the delid i will be using Thermalright helios aka repackaged PTM7950 for the die. The only reason im not using PK-3 is because the PTM acts like thermal glue when cold so i could remove the cpu easily from the socket without the lid coming off if needed.
For context i had an arctic LF3 for a day but the fans were outside of the case and the tubes interfered with the back fan or cd drive. I did not do any thermal test as i could not get to mount the thing properly in the case.
EDIT: After comparing this to the FS140 the FS is 12mm wider BUT this one is soldered so it should be better. Did some HWCanucks style ihs to cooler coldplate overlay and the FV140SE have 3 complete heatpipe over the die while the FS140 2.1/3 and the PS120SE 2.1/2. I used the assassin 3 as it have the same heatpipe layout as the PS120SE.

Owterspace · Sep 1, 2024

I am almost certain you wont find anyone here saying that FS is better than FC.

kazuviking · Sep 2, 2024

Owterspace said:
I am almost certain you wont find anyone here saying that FS is better than FC.

Just finding reviews of the FS anf FC from the same outlet and guy is really hard as barely any1 reviewed the FS.
In HWCanucks video the FC is equal to the FS on intel 1700 while being 4C worse on amd. The FC only reaches the FS performance at around 42dB. The FS was equal to a 240mm aio on 7950x

Owterspace · Sep 2, 2024

kazuviking said:
Just finding reviews of the FS anf FC from the same outlet and guy is really hard as barely any1 reviewed the FS.
In HWCanucks video the FC is equal to the FS on intel 1700 while being 4C worse on amd. The FC only reaches the FS performance at around 42dB. The FS was equal to a 240mm aio on 7950x

I guess that’s why my temps are always awesome.

doyll · Sep 2, 2024

kazuviking said:
Just finding reviews of the FS anf FC from the same outlet and guy is really hard as barely any1 reviewed the FS.
In HWCanucks video the FC is equal to the FS on intel 1700 while being 4C worse on amd. The FC only reaches the FS performance at around 42dB. The FS was equal to a 240mm aio on 7950x

To be fair, we have no idea if both FC & FS bases have same base flatness / shape. Different base flatness / shape fit to CPU IHS make a huge difference in heat transfer from IHS to cool. If both are not the same, one cooler will mate to CPU with better print and better heat transfer than other cooler. This better base mate to IHS can mean a lower performing cooler's temperature results can give lower temp results thus looing like it's got more cooling ability than other cooler. But if both had same mate / print to IHS the poorer performing cooler would give us lower CPU temps. So in reality poorer scoring cooler would actually give much better cooling if it's base was same as other cooler base and transferred heat from CPU/IHS to cooler base at the same rate. Hope that all makes sense.

GamerNexus cooler testing includes base to IHS pressure printing, thus showing us how each cooler being tested mates. But being video revews makes it hard to compare / analyze data charts and graphs. For me it's easier to compare data on paper / screen shots than trying to compare different points in a video.

Thermalright Frost Vortex 140 SE info

bombastinator

doyll

Adding up sound levels of multiple audio sources

Signals - Adding Decibels

bombastinator

doyll

bombastinator

doyll

bombastinator

doyll

aquaero

bombastinator

bombastinator

doyll

kazuviking

doyll

kazuviking

doyll

kazuviking

Owterspace

kazuviking

Owterspace

doyll

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