For gaming, no reason to upgrade from 12900K

 

I am completely taken by surprised that Intel admitted how well the 5800x3d performed against their 13900k in games. I am sure at some point before publishing the results we had 4 bar graph per game. But upon further review the performance of the 5800x3d disparaged the 13900k. So they used a line graph hybrid instead... At a guess on my part of course.

 

I am completely taken by surprised that Intel admitted how well the 5800x3d performed against their 13900k in games. I am sure at some point before publishing the results we had 4 bar graphs. But upon further review the performance of the 5800x3d disparaged the 13900k. So they used a line graph hybrid instead. At a guess on my part of course.

it's going to be an war of trading gains like p4/athlon era. We just need to hold out for next era - my guess lunarlake tbh vs amd one to really see whats worth getting. For now, best to spend less on cpu/mobo/ram imo. Hope the economy improves enough we can go back to yearly upgrade model then.

 

Look like a better lineup and pricing then Zen 4, that's for sure.

 

agreed.

AM5 mobo are stupid pricey, on top of ddr5 and then the cpu cost your self.

z690 alot cheaper and at current spot allows alot more flexibility with ddr4 and ddr5 and 12th gen and 13th gen.


im currently specing a build between a z690 12700k/13700k and a ryzen 7 7700x. For value intel smokes AMD....which is wierd to say for once.


5800x3d is something that really bends time and space though, and kind messes everything up. its on a dead end socket but man its like old but yet still smacks around everything new thats launching which is like wierd.

 

Ouch. If the 5800X3D performs that well in gaming vs the 13900K then the Ryzen 7000X3D refresh is going to wreck it.
Very good pricing on this gen though so that is awesome to see.

 

I would agree that Zen 4 3D is the one to watch.

Zen 4 is kinda lame in my mind due to the cost involved and it too also gets beat by the 5800X3D in some games. So I guess I'm just not all that impressed with either side right now.

 

Hard pass. I cannot stand intel. Awful performance, high wattage and toothpaste. Good NIC's though.

 

Amd 7000 95c is okay

 

One thing I want to know is if that 65w claim holds true. If they have managed to dial in the power efficiency of this 13th gen flagship so it can handle 12900k performance at 25% of the power draw, that'll be a huge win for team blue.

(it's also super good for the laptop market)

 

That second chart is really terrible. They should have moved the yellow line way down and started the scale at the 50% mark to emphasize the +20% gains towards the right. And am I seeing a performance LOSS in Horizon? Makes AMD look really tempting. Sad how quickly my 10900k is aging. even at 5100 all core.
Zen4 performance is impressive, but Intel's prices are also impressive. Zen4 X3D would be cool, but would love to see something with more than 8 cores get that treatment.

 

Though given the high temps of Zen 4, I do wonder how much clock speeds will be backed off for the 3D parts.

 

No platform-upgrade anytime soon. Nice to see my money stretch!

 

Ahhh, thats better....

 

7800 X3D will be great but AMD needs to fix the freq problem. Now 7950 X3D would be best of both worlds.

 

The 7800X3D when released will still have lower clocks than the standard version there is no way getting around that as you can see the standard run hot so the X3D will run even hotter so they have no choice but to lower the clocks.

 

I think gamers with a 12900k and a 3090 will be skipping this generation of CPU and GPU.

 

Probably but really depends how much performance more the 4090 are imo. If its 70% plus can look at.

 

It's a shame they can't make an unlocked 7950X3D for water cooling and direct-die kits like der8auer is doing, like a 13900KS edition. That insane 20c drop would be perfect over the current 94c temps with a 360 aio cooler. I'm guessing would have to lock it under a few hundred MHz to shave off the temps.

 

Not a problem during gaming.

 

^True also 6000Mhz DDR5 ram is fud.

 

I still want to know which CPU is “6ghz out of the box” Per the Intel slide shown today.

It isn’t the 13900K or 13900KF

 

KS Intel Core i9-13900KS Special Edition 6GHz CPU to launch next year - VideoCardz.com

 

Anyways to get back on topic.

Intels ability to stack e-cores across there entire lineup at the same price point will massively boost there multi core performance. While keeping 6-8 P cores since gaming does not scale really past 8 cores anyways allows them to keep bumping clocks which is allowing them to keep a gaming edge over amd.

Intel isn't going to let amd blind side them like the 8th, 9th and 10th gen days anymore.

13th gen is looking good and will probaly take the wind out of AMDs sail for there launch especially once reviews hit and pricing for over all build cost are factored. Amd better have 3d stacked chips close around the corner.

 

Anyways to get back on topic.

Intels ability to stack e-cores across there entire lineup at the same price point will massively boost there multi core performance. While keeping 6-8 P cores since gaming does not scale really past 8 cores anyways allows them to keep bumping clocks which is allowing them to keep a gaming edge over amd.

Intel isn't going to let amd blind side them like the 8th, 9th and 10th gen days anymore.

13th gen is looking good and will probaly take the wind out of AMDs sail for there launch especially once reviews hit and pricing for over all build cost are factored. Amd better have 3d stacked chips close around the corner.

Intel still recovering from it problems tbh. It takes time till pat gelsinger magic will work off. Always was meteorlake and lunarlake. Its unfortunate intel lost jim keller over the stupid ceos decision making processes. None of this would have happened if pat gelsinger was chosen as ceo in 2012

 

I'm curious if/when Intel goes with a chiplet design in the future with P and E cores on separate chips (and separate process nodes - with e-cores on the older/mature node and P-cores on that latest bleeding edge).

 

Intel's own chart of games show that the majority of them show a peak performance uplift of 10% and less. More on the less so about 2%-7% range at stock. With only 3 reaching 20% in games at stock.

https://download.intel.com/newsroom/2022/2022innovation/13th-Gen-Intel-Core-Desktop-Media-presentation.pdf

Test Methodology

Intel® Core™ (14th Gen) Desktop Processors - 2 | Performance Index

edc.intel.com

Spoiler: Test beds for the PC's used

13th Gen Intel® Core™ i9-13900K processor (RPL-S) PL1 set to 253W TDP, 24C32T (8P + 16E);
Motherboard: Intel Internal Validation board;
Memory: G.Skill DDR5 CL 28-34-34-89, 2X 16GB DDR5-5600MHz;
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 1TB;
Display Resolution: 1920x1080;
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Pro 22621.160;
Graphics card: NVIDIA RTX 3090 (FTW3), Graphics driver: 516.59; Motherboard BIOS version

Processor: Intel® Core™ i9-12900K Processor: 16 Core (8 P-cores + 8 E-cores);
Samsung* 980 Pro 1TB nvme SSD;
RTX 3090 Driver 471.68; 64GB (2x32GB)
DDR5-4400 CL36 memory;
Win 11 22000.9 Processor:

Processor: 11th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-11700 Processor (RKL-S) PL1=65 W TDP, 8C16T;
Motherboard: Pre- production Asus Prime Z-590P;
Memory: G. Skill DDR4 CL 14-14-14-34, 2X 16 GB DDR4- 2933MHz;
Storage: Intel SSD 905P 960GB;
Display Resolution: 1920x1080;
OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 20H2 19042.685;
Graphics card: NVIDIA RTX 3080 (XC3 Ultra), Graphics driver: 460.89; BIOS version 309

Intel Core i7-10900K 3.7Ghz/5.3Ghz 10C/20T, 125W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Maximus XII Extreme; BIOS Ver: 403;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59); Storage: Intel 905P 960GB
SSD; Memory: DDR4 32GB 2933Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080;
EVGA 1200P2 Supernova
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 20H1

AMD Ryzen™ 7 5800X3D processor PL1=105W TDP, 8C16T,
Motherboard: Asus ROG Crosshair Hero VIII (WI-FI);
Memory: G. Skill DDR4 CL 14-14-14-34, 2X 16GB DDR4-3200 MT/s;
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 1TB;
Display Resolution: 1920x1080;
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Pro 22621.160;
Graphics card: NVIDIA RTX 3090 (FTW3), Graphics driver: 516.59; Motherboard BIOS version: 3201

AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 3.6Ghz/4.9Ghz 16C/32T, 105W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Crosshair Hero VIII; BIOS Ver: 2311;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59);
Storage: Intel 905P 960GB SSD;
Memory: DDR4 32GB 3200Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080;
Power Supply: EVGA 1200P2 Supernova

AMD Ryzen 9 5900X 3.9Ghz/4.8Ghz 12C/24T, 105W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Crosshair Hero VIII; BIOS Ver: 2311;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59);
Storage: Intel 905P 960GB SSD;
Memory: DDR4 32GB 3200Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080; Power
Supply: EVGA 1200P2 Supernova

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 4.0Ghz/4.7Ghz 8C/16T, 105W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Crosshair Hero VIII; BIOS Ver: 2311;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59);
Storage: Intel 905P 960GB SSD;
Memory: DDR4 32GB 3200Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080;
Power Supply: EVGA 1200P2 Supernova

AMD Ryzen 5 5600X 3.9Ghz/4.6Ghz 6C/12T, 105W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Crosshair Hero VIII; BIOS Ver: 2311;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59);
Storage: Intel 905P 960GB SSD; Memory: DDR4 32GB 3200Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080;
Power Supply: EVGA 1200P2 Supernova
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 20H1

Intel® Core™ i9-9900K Processor: 8 Core, 16 Threads;
Samsung* 980 Pro 1TB nvme SSD;
RTX 3090 Driver 471.96;
64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 CL14 memory;
Win 11 22000.9

What I found interesting that they used the best ram at CL28 to conduct their test of the 13900k. While using DDR4 CL14 3200 ram on the 5800x3d and the 5800x3d beats it without the ddr4 3600 CL14. Furthermore, the uplift between the 13900k and the 12900k as a plug and play option is 10% or less.

 

Intel's own chart of games show that the majority of them show a peak performance uplift of 10% and less. More on the less so about 2%-7% range at stock. With only 3 reaching 20% in games at stock.

https://download.intel.com/newsroom/2022/2022innovation/13th-Gen-Intel-Core-Desktop-Media-presentation.pdf

Test Methodology

Intel® Core™ (14th Gen) Desktop Processors - 2 | Performance Index

edc.intel.com

Spoiler: Test beds for the PC's used

13th Gen Intel® Core™ i9-13900K processor (RPL-S) PL1 set to 253W TDP, 24C32T (8P + 16E);
Motherboard: Intel Internal Validation board;
Memory: G.Skill DDR5 CL 28-34-34-89, 2X 16GB DDR5-5600MHz;
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 1TB;
Display Resolution: 1920x1080;
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Pro 22621.160;
Graphics card: NVIDIA RTX 3090 (FTW3), Graphics driver: 516.59; Motherboard BIOS version

Processor: 11th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-11700 Processor (RKL-S) PL1=65 W TDP, 8C16T;
Motherboard: Pre- production Asus Prime Z-590P;
Memory: G. Skill DDR4 CL 14-14-14-34, 2X 16 GB DDR4- 2933MHz;
Storage: Intel SSD 905P 960GB;
Display Resolution: 1920x1080;
OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 20H2 19042.685;
Graphics card: NVIDIA RTX 3080 (XC3 Ultra), Graphics driver: 460.89; BIOS version 309

Intel Core i7-10900K 3.7Ghz/5.3Ghz 10C/20T, 125W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Maximus XII Extreme; BIOS Ver: 403;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59); Storage: Intel 905P 960GB
SSD; Memory: DDR4 32GB 2933Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080;
EVGA 1200P2 Supernova
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 20H1

AMD Ryzen™ 7 5800X3D processor PL1=105W TDP, 8C16T,
Motherboard: Asus ROG Crosshair Hero VIII (WI-FI);
Memory: G. Skill DDR4 CL 14-14-14-34, 2X 16GB DDR4-3200 MT/s;
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 1TB;
Display Resolution: 1920x1080;
OS: Microsoft Windows 11 Pro 22621.160;
Graphics card: NVIDIA RTX 3090 (FTW3), Graphics driver: 516.59; Motherboard BIOS version: 3201

AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 3.6Ghz/4.9Ghz 16C/32T, 105W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Crosshair Hero VIII; BIOS Ver: 2311;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59);
Storage: Intel 905P 960GB SSD;
Memory: DDR4 32GB 3200Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080;
Power Supply: EVGA 1200P2 Supernova

AMD Ryzen 9 5900X 3.9Ghz/4.8Ghz 12C/24T, 105W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Crosshair Hero VIII; BIOS Ver: 2311;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59);
Storage: Intel 905P 960GB SSD;
Memory: DDR4 32GB 3200Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080; Power
Supply: EVGA 1200P2 Supernova

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 4.0Ghz/4.7Ghz 8C/16T, 105W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Crosshair Hero VIII; BIOS Ver: 2311;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59);
Storage: Intel 905P 960GB SSD;
Memory: DDR4 32GB 3200Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080;
Power Supply: EVGA 1200P2 Supernova

AMD Ryzen 5 5600X 3.9Ghz/4.6Ghz 6C/12T, 105W;
Measured on Motherboard: ROG Crosshair Hero VIII; BIOS Ver: 2311;
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 19H2,
GPU: NVIDIA RTX 2080TI (Driver: 442.59);
Storage: Intel 905P 960GB SSD; Memory: DDR4 32GB 3200Mhz;
Screen Size: 1920x1080;
Power Supply: EVGA 1200P2 Supernova
OS: MS Windows 10 Pro 1909 v720, Service Pack 20H1


Processor: Intel® Core™ i9-12900K Processor: 16 Core (8 P-cores + 8 E-cores);
Samsung* 980 Pro 1TB nvme SSD;
RTX 3090 Driver 471.68; 64GB (2x32GB)
DDR5-4400 CL36 memory;
Win 11 22000.9 Processor:

Intel® Core™ i9-9900K Processor: 8 Core, 16 Threads;
Samsung* 980 Pro 1TB nvme SSD;
RTX 3090 Driver 471.96;
64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 CL14 memory;
Win 11 22000.9

What I found interesting that they used the best ram at CL28 to conduct their test. While using DDR4 CL14 3200 ram on the 5800x3d and the 5800x3d beats it without the ddr4 3600 CL14. Furthermore, the uplift between the 13900k and the 12900k as a plug and play option is 10% or less.

I think we kind of knew intel would be behind amd due to its ceo situation/internal company drama. The drama only stopped last year and the CPU to watch was always lunarlake and novalake based on last year information. Emerald Rapids and onward on the server side. Meteorlake is we will see situation.

I wonder if we will ever see what Jim Keller vision was for intel chips.

 

My i7-5820k is screaming to be updated, might have to jump on one of these 13 gens....idk still undecided with 12 gen and even some of AMD offerings. Either way, a modern CPU will be a huge upgrade from where I'm at now.

 

I sat down and actually did some really indepth looking into this on top of current market pricing.

overall ddr5 performance gains are there but are pretty minor outside of some extreme outliers. CAS latency in some titles seems to be more important then bandwidth but thats once again outliers. overall on average we are talking about small single percentage differences.

now on too pricing. AM5 mobo even for entry level boards are like 550 with mid range going eeeekkkk into 650--700 range. Meanwhile ddr4 z690 boards low end as low as 200 with some good mid range options in the 300 spot.

factor in ddr5 prices in at 32gb kits coming down a bit but still in the 300+ ranges with some sales here and there.

my pricing is all CND for information but the take away at the end of the day is you can buy a z690 mobo throw an i5/i7 or i9 13th gen re use your ddr4 module vrs an AM5 mobo/7xxx series/DDR5 modules and save alot of money on the intel platform. anyone sitting on 7th, 8th, 9th or even 10th gen intel and wants a decent upgrade in performance and actually cares about the performance per dollar this is a no brainer.

Yes AM5 will give you some future proofing into newer cpus but the cost truly is steep to stomach that after all is said and done.


Though obviously lets wait for 3rd party reviews on oct 20th as it will give us a more complete picture

 

The kicker for those with 9900k, i would use it for two more years than pickup 12th/13th gen and amd 7000 cpus for dirt cheap. Same with mobos and first gen ddr5. Wait for people to jump on meteorlake and amd equivalent onwards

 

Basiclly what I been saying is coming true. I stopped at My local memory express(similar to US micro center) and guys there where like yah we have had tons of 7xxx series chips since launch but there just sitting. People come in intrested to build but then stop once they get to Mobo pricing and ddr5.

Raptor lake has a huge chance here to dig into this quarter for sales if amd doesn't fix this problem soon(or mobo makers)

 

Basiclly what I been saying is coming true. I stopped at My local memory express(similar to US micro center) and guys there where like yah we have had tons of 7xxx series chips since launch but there just sitting. People come in intrested to build but then stop once they get to Mobo pricing and ddr5.

Raptor lake has a huge chance here to dig into this quarter for sales if amd doesn't fix this problem soon(or mobo makers)

The prices are so high for mobos atm for AM5 is due to two things, one is early adopter tax. All the motherboard AIB's know someone with more money than sense will pay whatever to have the newest shiny thing. Also cause they chose to release the 670 chipsets first, right now you can go with 670 or 670E so everything is of the upper tier. AMD should have released the 670E and 650E first to give customers a lower priced motherboard to start on the new platform and then release the non extreme boards a few months later. Everyone that was willing to stomach DDR5 prices did so when alderlake launched or they were such a Intel fan they didnt care about the cost. Intel was smart when alder and raptor allowed either DDR4 or DDR5 use. It helped those willing to adopt not feel as much pain on the switch. However after Raptorlake everything is on DDR5 and it is game on from then.

Also doesn't help with rising inflation and we are currently in a recession(I dont care about the Democrats redefining what a "recession" is, we are in one) people are not gonna spend on a new system when the upcoming holidays and families will have to worry about rising costs in energy, food and other goods, as well as getting holiday gifts for the family and that is right around the corner.

 

I'm still waiting to buy memory for my 12th gen. Don't think I should have to drop a grand for 64 Gb @ 6400 speed or so.
And some games (can't blame Intel for this) have not been patched to work yet. Looking in the pirate market to get these patched (because all it is is the DRM) is dangerous.
Some of those graphs appear to be ads for Ryzens, LOL.

 

with the 13900k memory controller and A die chips i see 8000mhz becoming fairly easy on top motherboards
Improvements need to be made in Latency

Samsung envisions DDR5 chips capable of a 7200 MT/s data transfer rate at JEDEC-standard 1.1 Volts in 2025. companies like gskill will take those chips and release them as 1.35-1.4v 8600-9000 MT/s... and thats before further overclocking by end user

We will start seeing everyday overclockers doing 9000 cl 28 in the future. ddr4 will die soon enough, for now ppl are just hanging on

 

Samsung envisions DDR5 chips capable of a 7200 MT/s data transfer rate at JEDEC-standard 1.1 Volts in 2025. companies like gskill will take those chips and release them as 1.35-1.4v 8600-9000 MT/s... and thats before further overclocking by end user

Well that's some BS.
Last year Samsung was showing off their 512GB DDR-7200 sticks saying how they ran on 1.1v already and that they should be in production that year.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-reveals-ddr5-7200-512gb-ram

Sounds to me like memory companies are once again intentionally drip feeding progress despite already having the much better stuff working and production capable.

 

So at 8000mhz ddr5 speeds isn’t that like ddr4 4000 gear 1 speed which imc will be at 2000 mhz… not that many cpus can handle that imc speed? So speeds like 9000 or higher in gear 2 seem unlikely.

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-talks-1tb-ddr5-modules-ddr5-7200

via toms hardware published last month.

"But while capacity matters, high speeds are also important for enthusiasts, so Samsung is working hard to improve the performance of DDR5 devices. The company is about to introduce ICs officially rated at 5200 MT/s – 5600 MT/s and aimed at the upcoming client PC platforms. We expect these chips to be used by module houses like Corsair and G.Skill to build modules rated for 6800 MT/s – 7000 MT/s and beyond, but those will require increased voltages.
Samsung envisions DDR5 chips capable of a 7200 MT/s data transfer rate at JEDEC-standard 1.1 Volts only in 2025. DDR5-7200 is a speed bin that Samsung has been talking about for some time, but without disclosing when it expects to produce appropriate devices. At the webinar, the company finally demonstrated a slide that attributes 'DDR5-7200+' to 2025. So expect memory module experts to hit speeds of 10,000+ MT/s (and higher) with such ICs."

 

I can't recall ever replacing a CPU in an old motherboard, but I have certainly replaced old motherboards and kept the same CPU.

I've seen it before, a long time ago. And, surprised they are allowing it again. The problem comes in OC'ing. If you cheap-out on a z690 motherboards they are still rated 12th gen cpus power consumption. So their physical power management on the mb is tuned specifically for 12th gen cpus.

We know that raptor lake require more power. So if you got a cheap z690 and they still provide a bios to allow you to go to 13900k. At best you are 24/h stable in all games at stock settings.

This is what happened before when this sort of thing was allowed. People had a hard time keeping stable OC's in certain applications/games. Which is why it is not "wise" to use last gen MB's with next gen CPUs. But hey, we just having a conversation here.