Radiator Screws - How Come We only Get Half ?

In my own search to solving this dilemma I came across a half dozen OCN threads on this topic..... for example

http://www.overclock.net/t/1413568/problem-with-screws/

For whatever reason, Alphacool, while supplying you with two different size screws, only gives you enough for either a push or a pull install. For example, if ya using a 360 or 420 rad, you will get:

-12x Copper-plated M3x30mm hexagon socket screw - These are great for a 25 mm fan providing 3 - 4 mm penetration into the rad shroud
-12x Copper-plated M3x35mm hexagon socket screw - These are too long for a straight fan mount but work well if ya added a pair of 3mm gaskets or are using a fan grille.

Obviously if you installing 6 fans in push / pull, you'll nee twice as many screws.

Of all the threads I found, none had "solved" their dilemma, usually resulting in adding washers, cutting the screws or some other kind of "kludge". Not to be daunted after finding no Alphacool supplier who carried same, I finally came across a solution and in the hopes of saving someone else hours of search efforts, found a solution:

A. Euro folks can but off the Alphacool web site:

http://www.alphacool.com/product_info.php/info/p1240_screw-DIN-912-M3-x-30-hexagon-socket-black-nickel--4pcs-.html

B. Those of us on the other side of the pond here in US have two choices:

a) Go online and hope we guess the right thing
b) Run down to your local Ace hardware store and ask for Ace hardware part No. 71348=H (3mm x 30mm socket head 0.5 pitch) .... $0.96 each

I bought em at Ace cause until I got there, wasn't sure of the pitch. Knowing that, bet ya can find em cheaper online.

EDIT: 100 for $5.69

http://www.amazon.com/M3-0-5-30mm-Plain-Socket-Screw/dp/B009JE7X6C

Just found these..... silly me I was looking under "Radiator Screws" ..... these under "Fan Screws" though they don't match the Alphacool black.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/13092/scr-241/M3-05_x_30mm_Socket_Head_Screws_-_Aluminum_4-Pack.html?tl=g55c515s1457

Still no luck on the copper clad ones.

The shorter screws supplied with Alphacool rads are for 25mm fan directly to rad, and the longer screws are for through 25mm fan & case to rad.

It's the correct number/size of screws for fans in push-pull for the rads they sell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE

A. Euro folks can but off the Alphacool web site:.

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Euro folks can just go to any hardware store because M3 is a standard size which has a standard pitch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

I think the trick is not to search for "radiator screws" or "fan screws", but something like "metric M3 bolts".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter

The shorter screws supplied with Alphacool rads are for 25mm fan directly to rad, and the longer screws are for through 25mm fan & case to rad.

It's the correct number/size of screws for fans in push-pull for the rads they sell.

Click to expand...

As I said in other thread .... math don't work.

What part of the case are you mounting to that is 5mm thick ? In my Enthoo....the part of the case you mount to is about 0.5mm.....maybe 1 mm

Distance Between Rad Outside Surface and Screw Protector = 4mm (might be 5 hard to measure as threading makes metal protrude inside)

-Top Rad Push
Fan Thickness - 26mm (Screws not affected by anti-vibration pads on one side on Phanteks Fans as they countersunk)
Thickness of metal where mounting slots are = 0.5mm (estimated - didn't wanna take apart again to measure) ... let's call it 1mm for arguments sake
Total = 27mm ...... So the 30mm screws would go 3.0mm into the 4mm space before the screw protector

Now switch to 35 mm ...... how do you put a screw 8.0mm into a 4mm space ? That's where I get lost.

Mounts are often raised, as is the case on mine. The 35mm screws barely reach.

If they included double the screws for every possible situation it will just increases cost and shipping weight. They include 1 set of the 2 most common sizes and leave it at that. I haven't bought a rad from any other company that was any different. After all, where are the 40mm screws for 35mm fans, or the 8mm screws for open frame fans

Just search M3 x 35 in ebay ( or whatever length you need )
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HPI-Racing-Hex-Socket-Button-Head-Screw-M3x35mm-10-Pcs-HPIZ362-/231089225722?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35cdfdbffa

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiSK

I think the trick is not to search for "radiator screws" or "fan screws", but something like "metric M3 bolts".

Click to expand...

I used "DIN 912 M3 x 30mm" and "M3-0.5 x 30mm" .... quite happy with the Amazon $5 for 100 deal but still would like to have found the copper plated ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakusonfire

Mounts are often raised, as is the case on mine. The 35mm screws barely reach.

If they included double the screws for every possible situation it will just increases cost and shipping weight. They include 1 set of the 2 most common sizes and leave it at that. I haven't bought a rad from any other company that was any different. After all, where are the 40mm screws for 35mm fans, or the 8mm screws for open frame fans

Click to expand...

Well I am glad my car came with 4 matching tires instead of the dealer giving me "2 of each of the most common sizes and leaving it at that: All kidding aside, it simply leaves us in a position of being able to finish half of the job I wanna do and half of another job that doesn't need doing. My guess is it's a leftover from the days when rads were all going in custom cases and fan grilles were being used and people did need two different size screws. But now, with case manufacturers designing for water cooling, there's just not going to be many applications where ya have a 5mm difference between ya push and ya pull fans.

But, I musta worded my original post poorly cause the point is getting lost. Perhaps some of the responses were generated without finishing the post and not realizing that solutions were provided.

1. First it has to be mentioned that providing the screws, at the 5 cents a screw that I can buy them for would add a whopping 60 cents or 0.7% to my cost. I spent way more than that driving to the hardware store. But I'd have no problem with AlphaCool's cost control measures if the product page made the situation clear. As I said, if ya do a web search, you'll find at least 4 OCN threads on the exact same topic, many more elsewhere, none of which offered a solution. So it's a topic that comes up repeatedly.

2. This was not a complaint thread, it was a solutions thread ... while the background was intended to present the frustration that myself and many others have gone thru (as evidenced by the repeated occurrence of this topic on this very board) , my purpose in creating this thread was to provide solutions by a) giving the missing technical info so you are in a position to buy them and b) where to find them. So the next guy / gal who finds themselves in the same situation doesn't have to create yet another thread on the same topic and stare at his / her unfinished build while waiting for answers.

3. Again, I don't have a problem with what's in the box. I have a problem with lack of information. I wouldn't care if no screws were provided, but nowhere on Alphacool's web site, or any of there resellers web sites was I able to obtain the necessary pitch specification. Yes, we all read that they were (12) M3 x 30 and (12) M3 x 35 ..... but what's the pitch ? was it 0.5, 0.7 ? Do I go on line and buy (12) 3 x 30's of every different pitch in inventory ?

4. If the intent was to supply the user with enough screws for either push OR pull, and that the 2nd fan is an option to be considered as part of a later purchase or upgrade, then simply place this information on the product page of the web site.

** The package contains (12) screws for mounting the radiator in either a push or pull installation. If you want to add a 2nd set if fans in push / pull, you will need to purchase additional screws (Product No.:29043 - DIN 912 M3 x 30 hexagon socket copper plated - 4pcs) **

..... and then actually have the product available.

5. I still have not found a finish match to the copper clad screws that came with the radiator.....plenty of black, plenty of stainless and plenty of aluminum. Can't even buy them (or the black ones) from Alphacool. All they have are "DIN 912 M3 x 30 hexagon socket black nickel (4pcs)".... and they ain't black.



So why give me two sets of copper plated screws, one of which I can't use, and no source that I can find, not even the parent company in Germany that will sell me a matching set ?

6. If I can buy SATA power connectors for a $1 and, when I place the order, I get to "choose" which end caps I get (pass thru or end cap), it certainly seems plausible and I would much prefer not getting any screws in the box but being able to choose which screws I get by buying them, especially when it took the hardware store about 20 minutes to find a match. And that's a thread and length match, not a finish match.

So, here in this thread, yet again, the fact that none of the responses as yet have been able to point to a "matching" set of screws, tells me that something is still amiss. Even now that I know what to search for .... "M3-0.5 x 30mm CL 12.9 DIN 912 Plain Socket Head Cap Screw copper plated", I'm not having any luck. BTW, I don't "do e-bay" but I did search there and also came up dry. I found what I found on Amazon, half the time had to order from China, but no copper finish screws.

6. The only ones my supplier had were aluminum and they were outta stock. I'd rather have no screws and go out and bout 24 matching ones than have 12 that I have no hope of matching.

So, in conclusion....

A. I'm not suggesting Alphacool include a full complement of screws for every possible installation. I am hoping Alphacool at some point provides its consumers with the necessary information so they can go out and get what they need. Things I'd like Alphacool (as well as other manufacturers) to do:

- Put the full technical information for the screws on the web site "M3-0.5 x 30mm CL 12.9 DIN 912 Plain Socket Head Cap Screw [Copper Plated or as appropriate]"
- If they don't wanna invest the 60 cents to provide a full compliment of screws for push / pull, especially difficult to find ones like the copper plated, make the screws supplied with the radiators available as an accessory purchase with matching finishes. Don't give us 12 copper clad screws if they are unwilling to sells us another 12 to add our 2nd set if fans
- Put the above note on the web site about likely needing more screws and referring tot he part numbers above if doing a push / pull install
- Communicate with their suppliers and encourage them to carry the matching screws, and my matching I mean including finish.

B. As this has been a recurring topic here on OCN, with all the OP's and participants having come up dry in the past (at least the ones I found), this post was intended to a) provide the missing technical information (thread pitch) and b) share two readily available sources of supply with part numbers so those in need don't have to wait for 20 minutes or waddle thru series after series of web pages till they find the right thing.

C. Since I had no luck in finding the copper clad ones, I had hoped someone who knows of a source will jump in and provide one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by huhh

You could just go to a hardware store....

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I did ..... Ya musta missed the part about ....
Quote:

B. Those of us on the other side of the pond here in US have two choices:

a) Go online and hope we guess the right thing
b) Run down to your local Ace hardware store and ask for Ace hardware part No. 71348=H (3mm x 30mm socket head 0.5 pitch) .... $0.96 each

I bought em at Ace cause until I got there, wasn't sure of the pitch. Knowing that, bet ya can find em cheaper online.

Click to expand...

..... unfortunately the process was made more difficult and took longer because the product information page from th e Alphacool web site that I gave the hardware store guy did not contain the necessary thread pitch information.

The purpose of the post was to provide the sellers inventory part number so others would know what to ask for when / if they went there. Also ya needed to know the thread pitch when shopping online and that info was not on Alphacools product data sheet for the screws, so we had to testthe screws one by one against known threads first. That having now been determined, I posted that too so others would be able to get them at the 5 cent price instead of the 96 cent price at the hardware store.

Maybe its the fact you still seem to be insisting its wrong somehow. They don't fit your computer but lots of others they do.
Popular cases like the NZXT Switch 810, Phantom 820, H630 and Corsair 750D all have one or both mounts raised or grommeted. They are just the ones I can remember but it is not an uncommon feature for ensuring different sized fans or rads can be mounted.

M3 is a standard size in most of the world.

http://www.candccentral.co.uk/screw-din-912-m3-x-30-hexagon-socket-4-pack-copper-94603.html

http://www.candccentral.co.uk/screw-din-912-m3-x-35-hexagon-socket-4-pack-copper-94604.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakusonfire

Maybe its the fact you still seem to be insisting its wrong somehow. They don't fit your computer but lots of others they do.
Popular cases like the NZXT Switch 810, Phantom 820, H630 and Corsair 750D all have one or both mounts raised or grommeted. They are just the ones I can remember but it is not an uncommon feature for ensuring different sized fans or rads can be mounted.

M3 is a standard size in most of the world.

Click to expand...

Again, there's a lot of people in all those other threads here on OCN and other sites who also think it is wrong somehow. And yes I think it's wrong to export and sell a product in another country w/o providing the purchaser with the means or necessary information to obtain additional / replacement parts in that same country. When I buy my pump, I can buy all the necessary and matching accessories (Heat sink, fan, port adapters) with it .... when I buy reservoirs, I can buy all the necessary and matching accessories (tops, bottoms, port adapters, fill tubes, mounting hardware) with it.... when I buy water blocks, I can buy all the necessary and matching accessories (backplates, SLI links) with it. Why the special exception for radiators ?

Suppose I lost one or more screws ? In fact, if someone complained to the US Better Business Bureau or Consume Protection Agencies, these companies just might start having a bit of import problems with their products. Would anyone buy a US made car in the UK if you could not buy replacement parts there ? I know I never had the Porsche, Nissan, Jaguar, Mercedes dealers tell me they can't provide any parts I need. When buying a pump for example, the sites almost always tell ya what ya might need (adapter, for G-1/4 fittings or whatever) if purchasing the item. Again, why the exception here ?

The fact remains, not all of us live in "the rest of the world" and they chose not to sell this radiator in "the rest of the world", they're are selling it to US customers and with that comes certain responsibilities. Maybe it's not true in the "rest of the world" but here there are disclosure laws and regulations, so we are accustomed to having such information "before" we make a purchase. Giving me a source in UK doesn't negate the fact that they are not available here in the US. Showing that it works in some situations doesn't change the fact that 1) it doesn't work in others and 2) they did not disclose this fact. This situation is easily correctable with a simple "disclosure statement" and manufacturers, here at least, are required to provide such things. Yes, these laws sometimes result in stupid product labeling (For example, sewing needle package says "Do not stick in eyes") but this information here is obscure as evidenced by the number of threads on the topic.

I assume you aren't objecting to the fact that I posted about my experience trying obtaining the missing screw pitch information (M3 commonly comes in both 0.50 and 0.35 pitch though others are made) that was was needed and once having determined same, posting the sources and part numbers, at least for the black screws, with the missing pitch information for people who also find themselves short screws. So, I must ask exactly which point do you find objectionable ? Why would it be a burden or a bad thing for Alphacool to .....

- Provide the necessary pitch information on their web site so that we can obtain the correct replacement / additional screws.
- Add a note to their product page, in accordance with applicable US laws and regulations, saying that a user **may** need to purchase extra screws to complete their installation
- Provide a means for customers to obtain any replacement part that is needed from their authorized resellers or at least provide information on other sources where such might be obtained..... or maybe even sell the matching screws themselves !

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE

I assume you aren't objecting to the fact that I posted about my experience trying obtaining the missing screw pitch information (M3 commonly comes in both 0.50 and 0.35 pitch though others are made)

Click to expand...

0.35 fine pitch is not very common, all computer components that use metric screws use the coarse pitch. It's not just radiators that use these sizes, but for example hard disks use M3 and slimline optical drives use M2.

Incidentally I had a similar situation as you did when I bought a Corsair H60, to put a second fan on it, the manual said I need 6/32 1.25" screws. Well American screws aren't usually available from mainstream hardware stores in Europe, and Corsair doesn't sell them loose. So you see it's not just Alphacool who turns a blind eye to needs of their global customers, but also US manufacturers.

Luckily I found a good selection of both types of radiator screw at MDPC-X.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter

Now you've ventured well into the ridiculous. There is and never will be any laws or regulations in the US requiring any supplier / manufacturer / distributor / etc to provide replacement/extra parts for anything. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) certainly doesn't have that power. .

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I would ask that if you're going to argue the points I have made, that you respond to what I actually said. I never said what you are implying about "requiring [anyone] to provide replacement/extra parts".... I said they are regulations requiring disclosure because the purchaser may not be able to install the product w/o purchasing additional items. If I know that parts are are unavailable I can simply not buy that product.
Quote:

but here there are disclosure laws and regulations

Click to expand...

Quote:

This situation is easily correctable with a simple "disclosure statement" and manufacturers, here at least, are required to provide such things

Click to expand...

And, yes, such disclosure laws certainly do exist..... ever seen the statement on packaging "batteries not included" ... it's there only because it's required to be there.
Quote:

I do agree that it would be a good idea for Alphacool to offer the 30mm and 35mm copper plated screws for sale individually, and that's assuming that they don't, but that's only a suggestion that would be best made to their customer support or in a post on their forum

Click to expand...

Been there done that.

I'll repeat it yet again....., the purpose of the post was to provide a background on why they might be needed, what ya need to provide a supplier when ordering them, and provide a couple of sources of getting them. Having aroused my interest, I did in fact call the FTC just now and was in fact told that such disclosures are required by US law under the "Fair Packaging and Labeling Act" and under "Suitability for Intended Use" provisions of other regulations and having confirmed that proceeded to instruct me about filing a complaint which I had no interest in doing. However, ignoring all that, is the recurring nature of this topic over and over again here and elsewhere not evidence enough that there's something lacking ?

First you argued that they work, but the math showed otherwise. They won't work in any case that doesn't provide for that extra 5mm. Now FTC confirmed that this information should be disclosed. Turning the thread into an argument as to whether the manufacturers should or should not provide basic information is not beneficial to potential users and kinda of odd considering that you agree that the manufacturer should provide the information. Since manufacturers are not providing the information despite the preceding, can we not instead focus on helping users obtain the materials when they need them ?

A. What technical data is needed (Done):
M3-0.5 x 30mm CL 12.9 DIN 912 Plain Socket Head Cap Screw
M3-0.5 x 35mm CL 12.9 DIN 912 Plain Socket Head Cap Screw

B. Where can we get em (ongoing):

Black:
Ace Hardware - Part No. 71348=H (3mm x 30mm socket head 0.5 pitch) .... $0.96 each
Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/M3-0-5-30mm-Plain-Socket-Screw/dp/B009JE7X6C .... 100 for $5.69
MDPC* - http://en.mdpc-x.com/mdpc-mounting/screws/m3-x-30-mm-screws-black-oxide-button-head.htm ....

Black Nickel:
Alphacool (Germany) - http://www.alphacool.com/product_info.php/info/p1240_screw-DIN-912-M3-x-30-hexagon-socket-black-nickel--4pcs-.html ...
PerformancePcs - http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=30660\
PerformancePcs ** - http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=30661

Aluminum:
FrozenCPU - http://www.frozencpu.com/products/13092/scr-241/M3-05_x_30mm_Socket_Head_Screws_-_Aluminum_4-Pack.html?tl=g55c515s1457 .... $2.00 for 4

Copper
C&C Central - http://www.candccentral.co.uk/screw-din-912-m3-x-30-hexagon-socket-4-pack-copper-94603.html - £0.89 for 4
C&C Central** - http://www.candccentral.co.uk/screw-din-912-m3-x-35-hexagon-socket-4-pack-copper-94604.html
PerformancePCs** - http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=59_457_335_987&products_id=36437 ... $1.95 for 4

* Matching thread only .... these are button heads
** 35mm only

If anyone else has any other sources, especially the copper jobs here in the US, please advise

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiSK

0.35 fine pitch is not very common, all computer components that use metric screws use the coarse pitch. It's not just radiators that use these sizes, but for example hard disks use M3 and slimline optical drives use M2.

Incidentally I had a similar situation as you did when I bought a Corsair H60, to put a second fan on it, the manual said I need 6/32 1.25" screws. Well American screws aren't usually available from mainstream hardware stores in Europe, and Corsair doesn't sell them loose. So you see it's not just Alphacool who turns a blind eye to needs of their global customers, but also US manufacturers.

Luckily I found a good selection of both types of radiator screw at MDPC-X.

Click to expand...

Regrading the pitch, yes, so I have since found out....of course the high school kid at the hardware store picked the fine one first ... took another 10 minutes to find the coarse.... I also found the ones on MDPC when I bought a tool yesterday .... unfortunately not a head match. I have added all your links to the one post above so that anyone looking for the parts necessary to finish installing their rads without damaging them, can get hold of them. At least w/ Alphacool ya have the screw protectors if ya don't verify ya screw lengths.

Guys, in terms of Screws,mcmaster.com is a good place to go.
It carrys M3 0.5 30mm Machine Screw ( Zinc-Plated Steel), 100pcs pack for $3.72

(search for part number 92005A132).

The trick is, the website has weird lay out and u can't get the shipping cost till u get the item, it is printed on the receipt......

Anyway, the company is baed at Atlanta GA, which is fairly close to my place so I usually get the item the next day...super fast...and the shipping is usually around $4 to $10 depends on weight....

Just a thought~~~~~~~

Another good place in the US for screws is 4C Hobby Supply

http://www.4chobbysupply.com/servlet/the-Hardware--dsh--Socket-Screws--dsh--Metric/s/321/Categories

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaaQ

In the states, there is also Fastenal, if you have a store nearby they can order you whatever length, size, pitch you need. Among other things.

Click to expand...

awesome...looking at this right now~

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaaQ

In the states, there is also Fastenal, if you have a store nearby they can order you whatever length, size, pitch you need. Among other things.

Click to expand...

Yes Fastenal, Love that place. their catalog is like 5" thick if they don't have it you don't need it LOL ...JK. they have stuff that makes you scratch your head asking what the heck is that for?