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[Maximum PC] AMD Phenom X4 9850 Reviewed

5.2K views 34 replies 21 participants last post by  forcifer  
#1 ·
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/amd_s_new_x4_quad_core

Quote:
It’s been a pretty lousy six months in AMD fan boy land. Even the most vocal of fan boys have found themselves ducking for cover as AMD was hit with delays, production problems and errata bugs.

With the release of the Phenom X4 9850, AMD hopes to finally put some of those problems behind it. Dubbed “B3†chips, the new CPU no longer features the infamous TLB bug that hobbled performance of the original Phenom chips. If it isn’t already obvious to you, AMD is also reverting back to the X4 nomenclature that it had toyed around with before Phenom launched. New Phenom’s will now carry the X4 designation for quad cores and X3 for tri-cores (of if you want to be snide, quad cores with one bad core).

We tested the new 2.5GHz Phenom X4 9850 using an Asus M3A32-MVP board with 2GB of Corsair Dominator RAM at 1066MHz data rates, a 150GB WD Raptor, Windows XP SP2, and the new Nvidia GeForce 9800GX2 GPU. For a comparison, we populated a new 45nm Penryn Core 2 Quad Q9300 and a Core 2 Quad Q6600 in an EVGA nForce 790i Ultra motherboard. For those who don’t know, the Q9300 doesn’t have the same relationship that the Q6600 has to the top-end procs. Intel has cut the cache in half from the 12MB in a Core 2 Extreme QX9650 to 6MB in the Q9300. This makes it sort of a “Penryn-lite†chip. Why? There’s probably two explanations: Intel has either decided to do something with its Penryn CPUs with some bad cache (ala AMD) or it has decided to hobble the chip intentionally to give its top quad cores more of an edge. We set the pair of 1GB Crucial DDR3 modules at 1333 and installed Windows XP SP2 on a WD Raptor 150GB drive. Finally, the same reference GeForce 9800GX2 card was used in the same machine and the same public drivers were used for both tests. Is it fair to pit a DDR3 platform against a DDR2 platform? We think so. Afterall, we would have tested Phenom on DDR3 but there’s just no support for it yet. Even though the DIMMs in our Core 2 platform cost more than the CPUs, we think it would be unfair to not put the Core 2’s best foot forward. If anything, Intel is probably grumbling that the test should be conducted on X48 which, we’re sure, the company thinks is a better and faster platform.

For the most part, the Q9300 owned the night. It generally outpaced the old Q6600 quad core and the new Phenom quad core in most of our tests. In a clock-for-clock test, we would declare the Q9300 the winner with the Q6600 as the runner up.

AMD fans shouldn’t hand their heads in shame though. The Phenom numbers weren’t so far behind as to be dead in the water. Certainly, it doesn’t go quite head-to-head with the Penryn-lite but it is still fastest AM2 chip available today for most apps. That makes it a pretty good upgrade for those with AM2 boards that are capable of supporting Phenom. If you had to start afresh though and you weren’t opposed to Intel for anything other than religious reasons, Core 2 is still the champ in the cheap quad core category.

AMD’s big problem is expectations. When Phenom first launched late last year, the company had built up wild expectations that Phenom would level the playing field with Intel’s quad core. In truth, all it could do was barely compete with Intel’s lowest of the low quad cores â€" a chip that was a year old. AMD still has no response to Intel’s 3GHz Core 2 Quad QX9650 and the soon to be released 3.2 Core 2 Quad QX9770 chip and it doesn’t look like the company will for several more months. Meanwhile, Intel is already demonstrating fully functional Nehalem CPUs and says they’re on track to launch later this year.
 
#2 ·
thats ok if intel has the biggest and best cpu, because amd is making a killing in the mid range-low end. i mean how many people will honestly buy a qx9770? as opposed to say a new B3 X4 or even an X3, paired with either the 780g or 780FX boards that just equals and awsome deal for people on a budget. now im not bashing intel, they still do have amazingly fast quads at a cheap price, but you cant forget the little guy. with out them we wouldnt have qx9770, and f we did then it would be a few grand
 
#3 ·
For the average users this says "it doesn't matter, buy the one with the best deal" its just us elitists that are all hardcore over "clock for clock", I have hung on to amd with hope in my eyes, and because well I have gotten steals on my hardware from people ditching it around here. In real world I feel very little difference(if any) between my 5000BE and my friends E6750 when they are at the same speed.
 
#7 ·
Quote:


Originally Posted by opty165
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thats ok if intel has the biggest and best cpu, because amd is making a killing in the mid range-low end. i mean how many people will honestly buy a qx9770? as opposed to say a new B3 X4 or even an X3, paired with either the 780g or 780FX boards that just equals and awsome deal for people on a budget. now im not bashing intel, they still do have amazingly fast quads at a cheap price, but you cant forget the little guy. with out them we wouldnt have qx9770, and f we did then it would be a few grand

yes because those CPUs sell 100 times as much.

and on a $50 chip they might make $5 overall.

much better than selling that AND some chips with $900 margins...
 
#8 ·
Quote:


Originally Posted by SZayat
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"The Phenom numbers weren’t so far behind as to be dead in the water." yay
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But, shouldn't they be using Vista since its more quad-core optimized than XP? or thats just a common misconception?

misconception.

it's more optimized for heavy memory caching moreso than anything else
 
#9 ·
what the hell

did you see the performance chart? they had 20 bench marks a only sciencemark and pc mark HD (which is only remotely related to cpu speed) won. i've seen q6600 sell for $249 ($229 loweset i've seen) and x4 9850 retails for $249 ($239 OEM)

how in the world did they conclude the phenom won????

and from cnet review:
http://reviews.cnet.com/processors/a...-32908353.html

Quote:


...Intel remains the clear choice for anyone interested in building or buying a quad-core desktop with a chip in the $230-to-$240 price range.

amd should just go focus on ati graphic cards which are actually doing pretty good, and just drop phenom, skip a generation and spend a year actually design a good chip (they can call that one 'phenix' like back from the dead) that can compete with intel. they're so far behind there's no point keep pumping out phenoms.
 
#10 ·
Quote:


Originally Posted by xlink
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misconception.

it's more optimized for heavy memory caching moreso than anything else

I see, still, IMO they should've use Vista.

Quote:


Originally Posted by Captain Han
View Post

amd should just go focus on ati graphic cards which are actually doing pretty good, and just drop phenom, skip a generation and spend a year actually design a good chip (they can call that one 'phenix' like back from the dead) that can compete with intel. they're so far behind there's no point keep pumping out phenoms.

Image
Drop the processor manufecturing business!!! In your Dreams
Image
 
#11 ·
AMD's loosing more money on loans than on CPU sales their CPU SALES are actually profitable, they'de bleed so much read if they stopped production it wouldn't even be funny. it's not profitable right now simply because of overhead and that overhead wont' go away if they took a year off.

what AMD really needs to do is cut upper level people A LOT. lay off Hector Ruiz, all he's done is take AMD down the same road that he did at motorola... ohh wait motorola no longer exists it just split... get some good management in AMD, get things going on track and get them competative again. I liked the days of a $100 chip going the distance, and today is not that day any more. I miss the days of new castle and venice.
 
#14 ·
It's certainly progress and these B3's seem to be clocking to 2.8GHz without too much effort compared to the appauling clocks on some B2's. The performance difference in this price bracket definitely is narrowing.

The price of the 9850 2.5GHz is quite competitive now considering the price gouging on the Q9xxx's however the Q6600 has been spotted in the low $200's on special offer and Intel is set to lower it's retail price to $220 next month from the previous $266. There's no denying the fact that the Q6600 is faster clock for clock, can be found for less than $235 if you look carefully enough and overclocks better too.

I'm not bashing AMD as they're working their way out of the mess. It's just it's clear that they've lost grip of the high end and even the midrange but are still doing alright at the entry level. There isn't an awful lot of reason for DIY builders to go AMD at this stage if I'm to be really honest. Only at the entry level with the X2 3600 and 4000 for example it may make some sense as they aren't too far off the Pentium E2140 and E2160.

What's for sure is that AMD are lagging behind Intel's Core 2 Duo in the majority of price points. They can't hide behind their 780G forever and claim best entry level platform.
 
#15 ·
Quote:


Originally Posted by xlink
View Post

AMD's loosing more money on loans than on CPU sales their CPU SALES are actually profitable, they'de bleed so much read if they stopped production it wouldn't even be funny. it's not profitable right now simply because of overhead and that overhead wont' go away if they took a year off.

what AMD really needs to do is cut upper level people A LOT. lay off Hector Ruiz, all he's done is take AMD down the same road that he did at motorola... ohh wait motorola no longer exists it just split... get some good management in AMD, get things going on track and get them competative again. I liked the days of a $100 chip going the distance, and today is not that day any more. I miss the days of new castle and venice.

$100? My Newcastle was $350, but it was the faaaaaaast.
 
#17 ·
Quote:


Originally Posted by opty165
View Post

thats ok if intel has the biggest and best cpu, because amd is making a killing in the mid range-low end. i mean how many people will honestly buy a qx9770? as opposed to say a new B3 X4 or even an X3, paired with either the 780g or 780FX boards that just equals and awsome deal for people on a budget. now im not bashing intel, they still do have amazingly fast quads at a cheap price, but you cant forget the little guy. with out them we wouldnt have qx9770, and f we did then it would be a few grand

mid-low end? You may notice that the best chip in those tests, the intel 45-nm, was only about $20-30 more.
 
#18 ·
One thing going against amd is their cache size. AMD is noticably faster in some business apps going clock for clock, however when it comes down to real world they cant push it. They really need more cache to speed up those procs.

Increase those L2 cache to 2mb and i say win win.

Or atleast double what they have.
Image
 
#19 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by danewfie View Post
One thing going against amd is their cache size. AMD is noticably faster in some business apps going clock for clock, however when it comes down to real world they cant push it. They really need more cache to speed up those procs.

Increase those L2 cache to 2mb and i say win win.

Or atleast double what they have.
Image

They don't need the cache. All an increased cache size on an AMD chip would do will be increase manufacturing costs.
 
#20 ·
ok so lets stay with 512kb cache and be crippled for life. Anything becomes cheaper after mass production. If it works people will buy it because its a contender. Its the only thing going for them now.

Look at the rumors for their 45nm procs said to have 1mb L2 and possible 6mb L3

That would be a huge step forward and i'm looking forward to it. Yet its still half of what Intel has. Dont underestimate the cache performance.
 
#22 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by danewfie View Post
ok so lets stay with 512kb cache and be crippled for life. Anything becomes cheaper after mass production. If it works people will buy it because its a contender. Its the only thing going for them now.

Look at the rumors for their 45nm procs said to have 1mb L2 and possible 6mb L3

That would be a huge step forward and i'm looking forward to it. Yet its still half of what Intel has. Dont underestimate the cache performance.
They don't need it due to the IMC. Intel does in order to compensate for the FSB based design they still use.
 
#23 ·
they still can use it ... you cant neglect cache size no matter wat .. on your theory they could go back to a 256kb L2 and still be just as powerful? I think not.

Intel is going to have an IMC on their next gen .. what do u think is going to happen when they get an IMC + the 12mb cache?

Note: IMC = integrated memory controller (for those that dont know)
 
#24 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by danewfie View Post
they still can use it ... you cant neglect cache size no matter wat .. on your theory they could go back to a 256kb L2 and still be just as powerful? I think not.

Intel is going to have an IMC on their next gen .. what do u think is going to happen when they get an IMC + the 12mb cache?

Note: IMC = integrated memory controller (for those that dont know)
Benchmarks were done where it showed that 1MB was the sweet spot for skt939 and 512KB for AM2. The current socket I bet is not much different. I don't work at AMD neither do I know the inner workings of their finances, but I bet the extra cost of adding additional cache to their current chips will not compensate for the marginal performance increases, and right now it's obvious that they are not in the position to be liberal with their spending.
 
#26 ·
dont you understand?? AMD chips do not need the cache because the memory controller is on die. cache is not the bottleneck for AMD cpus. Intel on the other hand does need the cache especially with the non native quads with the chips communicating via FSB. Just wait til penryn when the DRAM controller will be integrated and watch as the cache size decreases