There is no right way to hold a mouse, no matter if you're playing a FPS or MMO game. It's purely user preference.

I thought this was general knowledge?

 

there are right ways to hold the mouse for certain movements

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berserker1

there are right ways to hold the mouse for certain movements

Right, but people will figure that out on their own and develop muscle memory for certain actions.

The point is, someone who claw grips does not make them better than someone who palm grips (or vice versa).

 

Wow, hilarious that you made a thread for this, Plus I have a curl grip and I seem to do fine in FPS's. There is a correct way to hold a mouse, its whatever you do best with. If you play well with the side of your hand ontop of the mouse, do so and thats a correct way to hold a mouse... for you.

 

Quote:

It's purely user preference.

Wrong
Quote:

there are right ways to hold the mouse for certain movements

That's what would make the most sense.

While many things in life are up to choice, I wholeheartedly believe that nothing is "preference", rather there's a right way of doing things.
You can choose to do or dedicate yourself to something, in the end though, how it's done correctly is not up to you.
Regarding mice I could never find such a discussion on the web, and wanted to start one myself, but lacked the motivation, because it would be a lenghty one, and required knowledge that IMO isn't even properly researched yet.
Would you suggest someone who wants to learn to play the piano or tennis to press a key or grip the racket however one sees fit or thinks is the most comfortable way? Surely not. Over the years scholars, and trainers alike have found, and established ways how to properly learn to play an instrument, or a certain sport to not only ensure progress, but also healthy practice. It's what you call the fundamentals, or "textbook". Whether you strive to win Wimbledon, or just want to play with friends every other weekend, the fundamentals are the same, and everybody has to learn them.
Now, I believe, it's the same for gaming, especially in how you hold a mouse, to not only progress in the most efficient way, but stay healthy while practicing. E-sports is rather young, and while there are fundamentals for top level competition, it's noticeable that those fundamentals are only regarding a game's mechanics. Be that to know hard, and soft counters, or build orders for RTS, or timing items, and knowing the most efficient routes through maps in FPS to name just the most basic fundamentals.
However, much like with playing the piano or tennis, that's just the cognitive part. With all those activities there's a large amount of dexterity involved. Without the required dexterity you'll have a hard time executing all those cognitive fundamentals.
Off to bed, more of this later.

 

***Here is where the discussion started for those curious or in need of references.***

Summary: No, it is not completely preference. There ARE superior/ideal grips for certain games. Each game demands different tasks from the user and your grip needs to be adjusted per game basis. IE: CS requires extreme precision, whereas RTS games like SC2 require a broad range of motion. And thus, I (and the vast majority of pros in those games) palm in CS and claw/finger tip in SC2 and most single player games - all with the same mouse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndrlol

giving the reasons certain people prefer palm grip and then citing even a majority of pros use said grip does not prove innate superiority.

Ok, we'll get the required double blind, peer reviewed, scientific study done for you ASAP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUKED

This. Anyone who disagrees, stop tryharding CS for a week and go play a Quake, any Quake. A UT might even do.

Those are different games. I admit that not all FPS require the same tasks and it might be more ideal to claw grip in some of them rather than palm grip. But in CS palm grip is definitely the superior/preferred grip. I don't know enough about those other FPS games, and haven't played them enough to offer any kind of credible analysis. I did say previously though that I do claw/finger tip grip in most single player games, including FPS games. The thing is that single player games are much less demanding than multiplayer though, so you can get away with a casual grip on the mouse.

@phl0w that was a great comparison and I absolutely agree with you.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spandy87

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndrlol

except the sources/proof you provide only proves that those players prefer palm grip not that palm grip is innately better. your logic is flawed which doesn't surprised me really. maybe worry more about getting good and less about fanboying.

Okay but if you actually understood what he said to qualify his position you'd see that he gives very good reasons why palm grip is innately better for FPS. The source or data just demonstrates THAT they use it. By itself, this is an indication that for the game they play, this is more optimal. Unless you have a video that shows the same amount of pros in one room playing with claw...

"Eat more s***, billions of flies can not be wrong."

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderbringer

"Eat more s***, billions of flies can not be wrong."

What...? You're trying to make the comparison that flies eating dung is equivalent to pro CS players using palm grip?

 

No.

 

I'm not too bothered to go through the FK thread to read the discussion, but I pretty much agree with phl0w here: There is ALWAYS the optimal way to do things. However, you should also consider HOW MUCH better the optimal way is - in this case I don't think the general "performance" difference between grip styles is that big, otherwise we'd see much less variance.

No matter what I'm sure the optimal shape and grip exist for certain tasks and certain hand sizes.

 

are there any pros using a deathadder in quake/cs at all? just wondering because i really think that the shape of the deathadder is more hindering you if you have a real good aim/movement.

 

Still can't believe this is a thread.

For anyone who thinks certain grips are superior for certain games, I can honestly tell you your wrong. I use multiple grips, mostly palm and claw, and I do no better switching grips. Its whatever you get used to thats better. Saying one grip is better then the other is like saying that right-handed people are better at sports then left-handed people. Get a grip on reality people.
Quote:

Originally Posted by karbz

are there any pros using a deathadder in quake/cs at all? just wondering because i really think that the shape of the deathadder is more hindering you if you have a real good aim/movement.

If thats the mouse you got used to, why would it hinder you?

 

well this escalated quickly...

I adjust as nessisary. i think i subconsciously use palm grip more than claw. my mouse is rather large and it just seems to fit better that way.
however i think when making micro adjustments i use a claw grip so my finger muscles control the movement, rather than my arm/elbow.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ADHDadditiv

Still can't believe this is a thread.

For anyone who thinks certain grips are superior for certain games, I can honestly tell you your wrong. I use multiple grips, mostly palm and claw, and I do no better switching grips. Its whatever you get used to thats better. Saying one grip is better then the other is like saying that right-handed people are better at sports then left-handed people. Get a grip on reality people.
If thats the mouse you got used to, why would it hinder you?

im a little less passionate about my opinion but i think i agree with you..
sure there may be "better" (physicaly more efficient) ways for certain movements.. but that doesnt mean that its REQUIRED for the user to use in order to be a good player.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by karbz

are there any pros using a deathadder in quake/cs at all? just wondering because i really think that the shape of the deathadder is more hindering you if you have a real good aim/movement.

Here's a CS pro "claw" gripping a DA. Idk if this kills the thread but I'm pretty sure swag is better than everyone on this forum.

http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/5596-full/1366428241.1359.jpeg

 

You see a lot more people palming as it's the most common way to hold/grip the mouse. You have to understand and realize that there are people in this world that find certain grips awkward or uncomfortable regardless of game and playing dynamics.

The CS pro scene actually has many claw grippers that have combined motion dynamics of the palm grip and do rather well. The Quake scene is rather straight forward, but the mindset or mentally is flipped. Arm motion is a bit more rare, but present with certain players.

General experience will outweigh what's logically just in your head. Just dont limit yourself and experiment around with different things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadger

Here's a CS pro "claw" gripping a DA. Idk if this kills the thread but I'm pretty sure swag is better than everyone on this forum.

http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/5596-full/1366428241.1359.jpeg

You can find many more. I personally know a few.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADHDadditiv

For anyone who thinks certain grips are superior for certain games, I can honestly tell you your wrong. I use multiple grips, mostly palm and claw, and I do no better switching grips. Its whatever you get used to thats better. Saying one grip is better then the other is like saying that right-handed people are better at sports then left-handed people. Get a grip on reality people.
If thats the mouse you got used to, why would it hinder you?

Oh? With what authority and expertise can you tell us that? What level are you in which games? Your right handed vs left handed analogy is completely erroneous. phl0w's was much better and absolutely appropriate. I'm sure that before fundamentals were established for various sports there were plenty of people saying the same types of things that you are about them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadger

Here's a CS pro "claw" gripping a DA. Idk if this kills the thread but I'm pretty sure swag is better than everyone on this forum.

http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/5596-full/1366428241.1359.jpeg

Interesting. However, it's not completely unexpected to see 1 top player using claw grip when you take into account the vast differences in hand shapes and sizes as well as the shapes and sizes of all the various mice that are used.

In the FK thread I posted a link to a video that showed at least 5 of the top teams in the world at the esea lan finals, including NIP - the best team in the world, and neo's team, and every single player shown in the video was using palm grip.

 

I generally agree with plh0w that a certain grip is usually to be considered best, and the textbook analogy fits well IMO.

But there are people that will benefit from certain grips even though nobody else does. If we stick with the Tennis analogy (which is good) there is the great example of Rafael Nadal. I'll quote wiki on his playstyle:

"Nadal employs a full western grip forehand, often with a "lasso-whip" follow through, where his left arm hits through the ball and finishes above his left shoulder - as opposed to a more traditional finish across the body or around his opposite shoulder. Nadal's forehand groundstroke form allows him to hit shots with heavy topspin - more so than many of his contemporaries."

I mean look at him, he's a right handed player, using his left hand for his forehand strikes with a weird grip that allows him to spin the ball at >4500 1/s and also plays a two handed backhand that is considered to be the hardest backhand on the tour. Because he supports it with his naturally stronger arm. Nobody would have recommended that to him early on when keeping to textbook. Yet now he is one of the best tennis players ever.

The point I'm getting at: sometimes people will do better with claw or even fingertip even in CS, because not all men are created equal.

For the majority the point stands though that palm should be the way to go for FPS games like CS.

 

You know, Ino, Rapha (and I mean Nadal, not the Quake pro

) came to my mind too, when I drew the Tennis analogy. And while I agree that he might be THE proverbial exception to the rule, let's not forget that his trainer(s) worked hard to bring his undisputed, yet rough, talent in line with the anatomical, and physiological requirements of Tennis. And it's not as if he was the first to strike his forehand with such an extreme grip. Also Jim Courier comes to mind, who - as a former Baseball player- stroke his backhand like swinging a bat. When Rapha began his career his style was even more extreme, and doctors predicted a short career due to severe injuries to muscles, and knee joints. While he's still suffering from those injuries on and off, they haven't been nearly as severe as they might have been (i.e. forcing him to quit), had he kept his uncompromised, and idiosyncratic way of playing.
I could give similar examples from legendary piano players too, who worked hard together with their teachers to find a style that meets the fundamentals of piano playing, while harmonizing their natural talent. There's one guy, who neglected this his whole career: Glenn Gould. There are quite a few musicologists that explain his early neurological problems, leading to a stroke, which he died shortly after from, from his malposition at the piano.
Anyways.
What I wanted to say was, that not only Rapha, but many other athletes, and musicans alike have to some degree their individual style. However, they've been studying, and practicing fundamentals for years, that they've become second nature to them. And this is what happens, when something becomes second nature to you: you have them down pat, you are in a position to experiment, adapt, adjust, maybe even depart from the basics a bit, yet sticking to those that simply can't be adapted to you - because they are fundamental to an area of expertise (sports, science, instruments,...).
Without training, however, you are not qualified to experiement. Sure, "gaming" is a hobby for the most of us. And yet E-sports is growing, and growing, and sooner or later will be just another job profile, like being a lawyer, or playing Tennis, whatever have you. And I'm pretty sure, that one day there will be courses, and training based on a curriculum to become a gamer, much like becoming a hairdresser, chef, or tailor. However, someone has to start gathering data on what's made progamers successful through the years. From the earliest beginnings of E-sports to today. In short, there's got to be a branch of science that examines E-sport to discover its basics. Who knows, maybe todays top competitive progamers will be tomorrows coaches, when after their career they actually start to reflect on the stuff they do/did to become successful. Because apparently they must be doing it right somehow

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaximilianKohler

In the FK thread I posted a link to a video that showed at least 5 of the top teams in the world at the esea lan finals, including NIP - the best team in the world, and neo's team, and every single player shown in the video was using palm grip.

Here's TaZ from "neo's team" claw gripping a 3.0
http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/5596-full/1366416857.4164.jpeg

The point I guess is there are no absolutes. Some players palm, some claw. It's all preference, to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaximilianKohler

In the FK thread I posted a link to a video that showed at least 5 of the top teams in the world at the esea lan finals, including NIP - the best team in the world, and neo's team, and every single player shown in the video was using palm grip.

Sigh. Look up ANY thread on the ESEA forums about this. It's usually a split between palm / claw.

Here is Xizt from NiP using claw. Someone else already contradicted you about ESC. You can also Google get_right and come up with a few pictures of him clawing.

Does that mean that palm is superior? No. The fact that 'some' top players use palm, while others use claw doesn't prove anything. All it means is that it's personal preference. You're best with whatever you're comfortable with.

I think you'll find that most of the top older players use palm simply because back then mice were mostly geared towards palm grip.

 

I use palm grip but grip is purely preference. Just like sports gaming is no different to unique styles. In all competitive fps games you'll find that there are top tier players that use all sorts of gripping. For example you have Shoxie from VG that uses a claw grip and you've got f0rest from NiP that uses palm, I could go on forever about who uses what grip and how good they're and comparisons but the truth is some people just simply play better with their unique or "untext-book style", if they tried to change to say palm after being use to whatever grip they've developed their skill over the years I bet they would not perform the same so to argue a particular grip is better than another is just ludicrous.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakU

Sigh. Look up ANY thread on the ESEA forums about this. It's usually a split between palm / claw.
Here is Xizt from NiP using claw. Someone else already contradicted you about ESC. You can also Google get_right and come up with a few pictures of him clawing.
Does that mean that palm is superior? No. The fact that 'some' top players use palm, while others use claw doesn't prove anything. All it means is that it's personal preference. You're best with whatever you're comfortable with.
I think you'll find that most of the top older players use palm simply because back then mice were mostly geared towards palm grip.

You must be mistaken... both of those pictures show them palm gripping...
Quote:

Originally Posted by cadger

Here's TaZ from "neo's team" claw gripping a 3.0
http://static.hltv.org/images/galleries/5596-full/1366416857.4164.jpeg

You have to be able to see the right side of his hand. He could just have his middle finger up that high because he's using it on the scroll wheel. When I'm scrolling to bhop my two main fingers will look like that too, despite me using palm grip.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadger

The point I guess is there are no absolutes. Some players palm, some claw. It's all preference, to say otherwise is pretty ignorant.

and thread

 

Arched hand isn't palming, Benefit of doubt of lack of pictures isn't out of the question.

Like I mentioned, there are claw grippers that have adapted to playing dynamics you would expect out of a palm grip. With this, it's bit harder to move and lift a heavier mouse. "Paw" grip if you will.

On a personal level, it's almost impossible for me to play with a true palm grip. Left or right handed ambidextrous, doesn't matter. I have a similar griping style to cs:go player scream and his aim is rather sick.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylit

Arched hand isn't palming, Benefit of doubt of lack of pictures isn't out of the question.

Like I mentioned, there are claw grippers that have adapted to playing dynamics you would expect out of a palm grip. With this, it's bit harder to move and lift a heavier mouse. "Paw" grip if you will.

On a personal level, it's almost impossible for me to play with a true palm grip. Left or right handed ambidextrous, doesn't matter. I have a similar griping style to cs:go player scream and his aim is rather sick.

You can arch your two middle/main fingers and still be palming the mouse. It really comes down to whether your thumb and ring, and pinky are pinching or lying flat on the mouse, and if your palm is lying on the mouse or if only the base of your hand is touching the base of the mouse.

With what mice and in what game(s) are you unable to use palm grip? Can you post any pictures of his grip? This is him right? It looks like a palm grip, but the pic isn't that good.

Also, here's another pic of Taz using claw grip, but he doesn't have his hand on the keyboard so he may be dead and/or alt tabbed.

I only palm my mouse when I'm alive and active in game. Otherwise I use relaxed grips like claw/finger tip.

Also, it's still 4-1 with all 4 of his teammates using palm.

It seems like a pretty simple, logical conclusion to come to that the more contact your hand is making with the mouse, the more control you have over the mouse for very small movements.